For women to become “assistants” in creation, is this dedication or a love trap?

The article was first published in "Youthology". It is an offline feminist conversation with Zhou Yijun, Yan Yi, and Yan Yue based on Atwood's "The Oracle Lady" and concerns the growth dilemma of every woman.

The following is an arrangement of the transcripts.

Writer Margaret Atwood has been writing about women since the 1960s. She is best known for her work "The Handmaid's Tale", but she has published nearly 40 novels and 18 books so far. Poems.

What is particularly admirable about Atwood is that she is always able to find inspiration from ordinary women and record their frustrations and hesitations in the real life space. In particular, she has a deep understanding of the issues of women's survival and rights in this society. A very sharp and critical perspective.

"The Oracle Lady" is one of Atwood's earliest works, published in 1976. The story runs through the growth experience of a girl named "Joan", from her appearance anxiety, submissive character and low self-esteem, to how she grows up As a secret writer, he is deviant and escaping from reality. A reader once commented: "Qiong's experience and thoughts reflect the resonance of millions of women, are the epitome of countless them, and express the inevitable hidden pain of growing up."

Why do women always work as “assistants” in creation? Who is forcing women to discipline themselves? Is it possible for women to reconcile their plight? What perspective does feminism provide us?

01 Appearance anxiety, irresistible cracks in reality

Sharon：

There is a very unforgettable detail in this book. Before the young "Joan" performed on the stage in the play, she was replaced from the beautiful "Butterfly" role because of her body shape, and put on a teddy bear costume to play the role of "Moth Balls". ” character moment. She endured the grievance and performed on stage. She said: "Although the teddy bear costume wrapped my whole body and dangled around me, making me sweat, I felt that I was naked in front of everyone."

This is a metaphor that impressed me very much. It was also at this time that young Joan realized that fat women and thin women were treated completely differently. Although both curvy women and skinny women can suffer, in fact, the former are more likely to be bullied, even bullied.

We once interviewed a woman who was deeply troubled by eating anxiety because she had severe body anxiety. She especially hates being called "sister" because when she was slightly fat during adolescence, some male classmates thought she looked burly and would call her "sister". But this title also left a certain psychological shadow on her.

Have you ever been troubled by appearance anxiety and body anxiety? How will you respond and deal with this anxiety?

Yan Yue:

As twins, we can deeply feel the extreme focus of society's gaze on women. For example, when strangers see us, they will look back and forth at us, comparing our differences, just like owls.

In the past, we were relatively similar, so we weren't particularly troubled. It wasn't until I was in college that a senior brother suddenly said to me: "Why do you have a bigger head than Yan Yi?" From that day on, I don't know if it was my hallucination or some kind of reverse psychology, but my head became bigger and bigger. The bigger it is, it's like secondary development. I just wonder, is my body reacting to the way the world sees me? Why react this way?

All the women around us, including ourselves, may have varying degrees of eating anxiety, some are more serious, and some can be tolerated, but this kind of anxiety cannot be relieved at once, and may even require a lifelong struggle. The cracks in this reality are huge, and it doesn’t mean that you can reconcile them if you know more about feminism or convince yourself more.

Joan has been looking for recognition ever since she was replaced. Just like when she goes from one boyfriend to another, she is always looking for approval from different people, and this pattern of seeking approval has been deeply ingrained in our hearts. Therefore, I realized that women of our generation, starting from the opportunity to enter the entrepreneurial industry, were not given rights, but the opportunity to break away from the previous model. But in reality, we may just be repeating this pattern.

Regarding this topic, I have been reflecting on how should I change it? I find that "getting recognition" is a source of happiness for many people, just like some people will open mobile games and play games for a minute or two every day. But I have been tortured myself, and when I can jump out, I will lose the timely and quick source of happiness. This is equivalent to me being free, but it is similar to space junk-like freedom, floating there. The feeling of not having someone to give you an "anchor" is very lonely and painful, but it may also be something we have to bear.

Zhou Yijun:

Looking for recognition is something deeper than our appearance anxiety, because appearance is obvious and we humans are visual animals. For example, the most differences and discrimination in the world come from skin color. If we lived in a world like Blindness, where everyone was blind, this problem wouldn't exist.

Why do women feel a little more anxious than men when they grow up? It's because women have a set of standards from head to eyes, nose to toes. A few years ago, I had a male middle school classmate who would deliberately cultivate his daughter to think that she was a beauty and encourage her to think that she was particularly good. I asked why, and he asked me a question, "Do you think you are a beauty?" Then he said, as long as you have such a moment of doubt in your heart, it means that you have not received this kind of recognition when you were growing up, and this will give you bring profound impact.

I think women have always been in the process of being recognized, not just for their appearance. When we grow up, we will seek recognition from different people. Of course, one of the most powerful powers of a woman is that she must be constantly changing and will surpass that person and surpass that standard. By then, it will no longer matter whether she is recognized or not.

Yan Yi:

The moment I dispelled the illusion of needing approval from a certain senior was when I saw him waiting for approval from another man in a higher position than him. I realized how this was just like the food chain, very unhealthy.

I thought of a short video a friend sent me. It was about a slightly fat girl who was interviewed on the streets of Boston and asked passers-by to rate her figure. Almost all passers-by refused, except for one boy who gave her an 8. A friend asked him how he would rate himself, and he said he would rate 9, which is quite ridiculous. But this culture of "refusing to evaluate others" and "refusing to be evaluated" is also a way of establishing subjectivity.

02 Self-denial and becoming a “sober pariah”

Sharon:

I just talked about the issue of women’s self-denial, which is also a very important theme of this book. Just like the sentence printed on the cover of the book: “Why are such excellent women always denying themselves?”

In addition, there is another unforgettable plot in the book, which is that no matter how successful the heroine is and how much praise she receives, even though she knows that she has creative talent and talent, she still does not believe that she is worthy of it. She always felt that she was an impostor, and would even say self-loathing words such as "career will only highlight my unworthiness."

Combined with some social surveys, we also found that this self-denial phenomenon is very common among contemporary women. I wonder if teachers can talk about it based on books and reality, why women still deny themselves, or even Have low self-esteem?

Zhou Yijun:

We always have different dimensions and standards by which we measure women. If a woman is very successful at work, she will be asked, "Why don't you take care of your family?"; if she is a woman who takes care of her family, she will also be asked, "Why don't you go out to work?"

One of the details in the book that touched me was that Joan didn't let her husband know what she was doing, pretending to go to the supermarket to work, but actually writing. When she discovered that she suddenly had another identity, this incident actually made her quite happy. I was wondering if we women can also hide in different identities, just like I have both the identity of being a mother and the identity of working.

Yan Yue:

I remember when I was in primary school or middle school, one time some people in the class didn't turn in their homework. The teacher called out the names of all the boys who didn't turn in their homework, and then said: "I won't tell the girls' names because they want to save face." A little." This sentence seems to be protecting girls, but in fact, I will in turn increase the shame of girls, and at the same time, it will make boys constantly lower their self-esteem.

This society will always believe that the dignity of girls needs to be protected more and deify it, such as putting "Mother Earth" or "Mother Motherland" in a position where they cannot be harmed. But when they go against your will, they can lower you to a very low position. To put it bluntly, it means not treating you as a normal person who makes mistakes, not treating you as a real person, which can be very dangerous.

Joan is a poor, not very good-looking woman without much social resources. She achieves worldly success by writing romance novels, but she feels that this method is not too decent, so she creates problems when identifying herself. hindered. She couldn't change it, she could only carry it with her for the rest of her life. This is also true for some disadvantaged groups, what Hannah Arendt called “the sober pariahs.”

Sharon:

I find that women often internalize this "self-deprecation." For example, Joan's first partner, "Paul," initially encouraged her to write and would teach her how to write. But when Joan's royalties gradually surpassed Paul's, Paul's attitude changed a lot and he began to deny her.

Later, after she left Paul and entered into an intimate relationship with Arthur, Joan chose to conceal her identity as a writer in order to take care of Arthur's self-esteem. So during the reading process, I could fully feel that Joan's self-examination and derogation had been internalized to a certain extent.

We have done relevant research on women's "showing weakness and catering" behaviors in marriage and love relationships, and we have found that contemporary women often behave differently in front of men. Even if they are very good, when facing potential partners, for example, they will avoid talking about their academic qualifications, salary, position and other advantages; they will consider male aesthetics when dressing up; they will pretend to be stupid in terms of skills and knowledge level. , or pretending not to be good at it; not daring to show that one is very strong; or covering up some high-consumption hobbies, etc. These behaviors are related to the long-term impact of women being subjected to the male gaze and being denied by men.

So, to a certain extent, I feel sorry for women's internalization of self-denial, especially when they are trying to cater to men or the market.

Yan Yi:

This book also mentioned a plot. Every time her husband "Arthur" and his friends got together and talked about the party, Joan, as a "good wife and mother", would pretend to be nothing. She sat in the corner with an understanding attitude, nodding her head all the time, even she felt stupid.

Until one time, she couldn't listen anymore and started to go "crazy" and said: "You guys are talking about these empty words all day long, but you actually understand nothing." This crazy episode touched me deeply. As a woman, she She was pretending to be stupid and too weak. Those things were suppressed in her heart and had not been resolved. One day, she will go crazy.

Zhou Yijun:

What I want to ask is, is she hiding her talents in marriage because she is oppressed by gender, or is it because she is vain about marriage? She may be expecting that she can be recognized by society only if she gets married. So, is this actually a kind of pressure put on her by the public order and good customs of society?

I think she has been portraying a very traditional woman at heart, but she also has the talent for writing, so she can't suppress her desire for free thoughts. There is a passage that is very well written. She said: "I once wiped them with 'love', thinking that I could make them sparkling and reflect my image, a more beautiful and brilliant image." I think she I just want to write about the mentality of expecting to make one's own image shine brighter through male love.

03 Mother’s discipline, anxiety projection and self-actualization

Sharon:

There is another very important question in the book, that is, what does Joan's mother think of her?

The protagonist Joan's mother seems to have been judging her daughter through the male gaze, but she herself has also been deeply disciplined by male Ning. She has management skills, but is willing to be a housewife; after seeing her daughter Joan getting fatter, she She was sent to ballet school to get in shape, and she kept scolding Joan, saying she was so fat that she was embarrassing herself.

This story felt very real to me when I read it, because last year I interviewed an interviewee who was suffering from eating anxiety, and she reflected that her anxiety might come from her mother.

Every time she comes home from other places, her mother will take out a scale. If her weight goes up a few kilograms, she will be criticized by her mother, saying, "Girls who are thinner will look better, and good-looking people will have families." Or "You can't even manage your weight well, how can you manage your life?". Because that girl has never been in love, her mother is worried that she won't be able to get married, and will put pressure on her, saying, "If you can't get married, no one will want you, and you will be a failure." After that, her mother would take her to try various weight loss therapies, such as massage, cupping, eating meal replacements, and signing up for weight loss classes. Her diet is also strictly controlled by her mother. For example, she can only eat boiled tomatoes at night.

It stands to reason that women should be able to understand the plight of women, and as mothers, they should be able to sympathize with the pain of their children. But why here, the mother has become the "accomplice" of male cohesion and patriarchy, forcing her daughter to discipline herself step by step?

Zhou Yijun:

As a mother, I can say one thing for her mother, that is, she may actually hope that Joan will have a better life in the future. This sentence may sound unflattering, but regardless of gender, people who comply with public order and good customs will have an easier time living in society.

Her mother may have never seen other possibilities in her life and believed that this was the only way to live well. When she is disciplined like this, she will feel that this is the only way out. This kind of kindness and good intentions later turn into an obsession. The obsession may turn into delusion, and finally turn into persecution. It is such a process.

Of course, I have also seen women around me who did not grow up as their parents expected, and finally achieved their own success. Some mothers are lucky enough to witness this. But sometimes it may not be possible, such as Chizuru Ueno, she and her mother failed to reconcile in the last moment. If you want to untie such a shackle, you can let your previous generation see more possibilities, and let them see that it is okay to grow up not like that.

There must be some tension, even cruelty, in the relationship between me and my daughter. Because as a mother, all my weaknesses are visible to my daughter. And she is also a woman, and her counterattack against you must be the most terrifying.

Yan Yi:

I especially understand this, and reaching understanding between different generations does require a lot of learning and feeling. Sometimes I will tell others what you do, and life will be easier. But I can't say this to myself, because I know that my life is destined to be unhappy, because no one has the answer. And most of the time, I am just unhappy. No matter how thin or good-looking I am, I will never be happy. This is my pessimistic epitaph.

Joan's mother in the book "The Oracle Lady" is a very typical example of projecting her anxiety onto her daughter, because she is a woman who has to keep in shape, and she is not very satisfied with her life. So I found that many times when people complain about others, it may be that they themselves are troubled.

I once had a male friend, and I found that he especially liked to comment on girls’ appearance. Later, I chatted with him and found out that he had always been relatively inferior to his appearance. He finds control by judging others in this way, as if he is worthy of you, or I am better than you, but he is just projecting his anxiety.

Yan Yue:

Our mother is a housewife. Most women of that generation were either housewives or working double jobs - being both housewives and working. I think this is also very cruel to them, because I can't even use my mother as a role model for my career path. Is this denying her life to some extent?

Including myself, I will also project some expectations on her. For example, if I say that you also have creative talent, I will buy her some paintbrushes. Later I realized that my behavior was also using it as a tool for my self-realization, rather than really hoping that she would explore it. It must also be a difficult process for her.

Zhou Yijun:

Sometimes I think about all the different ideas we are exposed to when talking about women. The good thing about these ideas is that it gives you something to ground you in, but I feel like each of our lives, both men and women, are very specific. Your specific life cannot be completely guided by theories and labels.

Your mom may not feel like doing it today, but in 10 years, maybe she will secretly draw on her own, or she may never draw at all, it's her choice.

Including the girl who dyed her hair pink and was bullied by the Internet and died, it also comes from various symbolic meanings in society, which leads everyone to think that you are immoral if you dye your hair.

04 Feminism makes the weak continue to fight

Sharon:

Later, he may have chosen to run away. When life was unsatisfactory, he fled from his mother to London, then from London back to Canada, and finally to Italy. But in addition to escape in the physical sense, it actually also has a spiritual sense. Some escapes, for example, he habitually lied or ran away, or covered up the past, and he even acted like pretending to commit suicide.

Yes, but it seems that no matter where he is, his dilemma is actually always there. And what I also want to ask is that for us women today, the difficulties we faced back then have some improvements or changes for us now. .

Zhou Yijun:

I think this dilemma has always been there, but some people can resist it, and some people haven't resisted it yet.

Just like the sad pink haired girl thing we just talked about is proof that these people are here to stay. They want to safeguard their vested interests, but as a weak person, you can only resist constantly, even throughout your life.

I think the truly terrifying thing about cyber violence does not come from the way they speak, but from its sustainability, which keeps regenerating. Over time, you will feel that this matter has become very important, and may even occupy your life experience. It eats away at my time and energy to think and feel about it. This is something I can't resist, and I usually don't look at it at times like this because I know I can't resist.

Yan Yi:

One of the comments made by a pink-haired girl on the Internet was that she was not worthy of being a teacher. I thought it was too vicious, as if I could not have any expectations for my own survival experience. If I want to avoid harm, all I can do is say that I am trash, so that no one can hurt me.

There is a slogan that says, "What is personal is political." Discussions on the situation of women often focus on the aspect of "marriage and love," but I really can't understand why they look for loopholes in women. You can find a very correct angle. . Especially people who are close to me will always use their priorities to despise my priorities. As soon as I start to go crazy, like doing a small, unimportant thing first, he can't control me. This is also how I regain my power, which is to not trust anyone's priorities for me.

For example, in the interaction between Yan Yi and I, people will notice that we are twins, as if we have to act like twins instead of being human beings with real feelings. So I encourage everyone to be shameless. If we have to be shameless all the time, we will care too much about other people's evaluations.

Yan Yue:

I think it has become a source of strength for me, but on the other hand, I know that I cannot underestimate this evil power. That is, if you don’t sacrifice yourself all the time, I will resist you, but it is really easy for you. Be sacrificed.

When we first started creating jokes related to "big faces", it was because we saw such comments and thought they were silly, so we wanted to satirize them. When we tell these jokes on stage, we really feel very comfortable and powerful. But I don’t think I can educate anyone, and I don’t think anyone will say sorry after reading it.

Regarding online violence, there may not be a way to completely ban it, but more methods are indeed needed to tell a person who is victims of online violence how to save himself.

As for whether the situation of women is improving, I think we are not sociologists and we are not qualified to answer this question. I can only say that from my own experience, more and more people around me are aware that there is a problem and where the problem lies.

I think the beauty of feminism is that it is for the weak. The so-called weak does not mean that the world will become better if the weak become strong, because there will always be weak in this world, and no one is redundant. If you think about it carefully, we have been taught since childhood and have been trying to tell us that if you step on these people, you will be a valuable person. But feminism tells you that the weak should be entitled to the same power and resources as the strong, and this requires you to achieve this through constant struggle, and this struggle will never stop.

05 Female creatives fall into the trap of “assistants”

Sharon:

Establishing your own discourse system for women means mastering your own subjectivity. I think it may be a way of resisting empowerment. I am very curious about you because Teacher Yijun Jun is a writer or you are creating talk shows. In fact, both Related to the field of creation, I also want to ask, does creation bring you a different sense of meaning?

Yan Yi:

I think many of the concepts in my mind were slowly instilled in me as I grew up. When I tried to write it down, I realized how ridiculous it was; when I refuted him, I felt that what I said made sense, and I could feel the existence of myself. But normally, I don't feel this way at all.

We've said elsewhere before that we feel like our level of humor hasn't improved much, but the longer we've been in the industry, more and more people find us funny. I'm also wondering if this is a kind of projection of their "status". For example, after you perform well and achieve results on a show, it means that whatever you say is always humorous, and everyone laughs at whatever you say.

But I couldn't enjoy this feeling for a long time. Just like a round table, I kept changing positions. Writing will force me to use my own perspective to narrate, and it will make me start to think about my unique feelings about everything, and constantly change the narrative perspective.

Zhou Yijun:

Writing may be a home for me. Although I have done many different things, I have been a reporter, I have made documentaries, I have done other programs, etc., but I imagine that when I get old, I will still be a writer. It will put your mind into another state, and you won't think too much about the labels given to you by people outside the door.

Just like when you do talk shows, you also see some patterns and cut some things out of the chaotic and chaotic world. It’s amazing that you can not only observe but also express. No one can escape such a thing, but if I am lucky enough to be able to observe and express it, it seems that I can break with fate and finally give people strength.

Yan Yue:

In our industry, we need to accept other people's opinions of us so quickly that you don't even have time to react.

There are two so-called "not so good" audiences. One way is to come up and directly say something bad about you, or scold you. The other kind is kind. They will say that I have watched all your previous open mics, praise you, say that they are your fans, and finally send you a joke, hoping that you will change it. But I think he is using you to complete his own experience of being on stage, using you as an intermediary to realize himself and gain recognition.

Many friends also want to go on stage, but they are afraid of going on stage, such as the possibility of being rejected by the audience. It’s a pleasure and a masochistic characteristic of our industry—you’re interacting with the world, only to find out that no one wants to listen to you.

In the creative field, there has always been a saying that women are regarded as "muse", but there seems to be no corresponding word for men. It seems that as long as you are a woman, you are first of all a muse, the highest position for women in the creative industry.

Moreover, female artists themselves feel that what they do is called "plagiarism", not "muse". For example, Ferrante shared her feeling that being a writer is a somewhat shameful profession because she has been stealing the lives and stories of people around her and turning them into her own works, just like stealing other people's lives. . But when a male artist strikes up a conversation with you, they think it’s a good thing that he writes your story into his work.

In the movie "Disqualified from the World: Dazai Osamu and His Three Women", a typical literary young woman was mentioned. She kept a diary, which was later written by Dazai Osamu into the novel "The Setting Sun". Osamu Dazai said, I want to have a relationship with you, but only if you give me your diary. The girl admired Osamu Dazai very much, so she exchanged this request. After thinking about it carefully, I found that her mentality was related to the era she lived in. Could a work written by her really be less successful than Osamu Dazai?

I find that girls are more likely to fall into this "assistant" trap. For example, a girl has a boyfriend who is a creator, and she will slowly become his assistant. Girls especially enjoy dedication. But if she wanted to go down this path, it would be easy for her to hide behind men. The creative atmosphere may not encourage women very well. She will suffer a lot of stares and pressure. In the end, she may think, I will create indirectly through you first, but this will completely stifle her from embarking on the path of creation.

Zhou Yijun:

I just heard you talk about "dedication", and I have seen many examples. Recently, I saw a female novelist talk about a very interesting scene. She said that Hemingway could sit motionless in a European cafe, drinking wine and writing. That was because there was a woman at home helping him take care of his children.

In addition to society giving women many roles and obligations that they must play, we can't help but "give" in our hearts. We may also have to fight with ourselves deep down. Don't imagine that you are a perfect person, let alone just because you are. If you are a vulnerable group, you will be more righteous.

Yan Yi:

I read a story about a female rock musician named "Niko". At that time, there were no female musicians on the stage, but she loved rock music very much. She got closer to rock music by falling in love with these male musicians, but she never forgot that she wanted to be a person on the stage. Of course, some people slut-shamed her, but she didn't care, and finally became a female rock musician.

There are girls around us who are very creative people, but when they face this kind of threat, they will feel very scared. Therefore, the environment also needs to encourage them more to overcome this fear, instead of giving you an unpleasant name like "Guoer" from the very beginning.

Sharon:

Speaking of "dedication", I also think of what Chizuru Ueno said in the book "Patriarchy and Capitalism" that "in the name of love" is a trap given to women by patriarchy and a way to extract women's labor. The status of "mother" and "lover" makes it easy for women to give "willingly" without caring about the rewards, but in essence this kind of labor is to relieve men's burden.

Zhou Yijun:

Let me add that "dedication" is not entirely a derogatory term, but a neutral gerund. In a family or a relationship, someone must give. There is no perfect ratio.

So why can’t women resist “giving”? I don’t know if it’s possible that she is also seeking praise deep down in her heart, so I would reflect on some of my actions in this way. If this is the case, then can I do without this kind of "praise" so that I won't "can't help" giving?