Dialogue with Liang Junjian: The field of images, the images of fields | Around the Fire PKU&THU

Liang Junjian, born in 1983, Ph.D., director. Associate professor, doctoral supervisor, visiting scholar at the Department of Anthropology, University of South Carolina, USA, his academic works have been published in "People's Daily", "Contemporary Film" and other publications, and he has reported himself in academic conferences such as the World Anthropology Congress and the Royal Anthropological Society Film Festival. Anthropological research of film and television and ethnographic film creation.

He is engaged in the shooting of documentaries. He has directed works such as "Himalayan Ladder" and "I'm in the Forbidden City for 600 Years", and has been nominated for the Chinese Film Golden Rooster Award.

Images have become the text of the times.

From the Tibetan ladder to the southwestern border, from short videos to virtual reality, the images accurately capture the fleeting fragments and eternal moments of modern society. For human society, it has long been not only a way of recording, but also shaping our lives.

Since 2012, Mr. Liang Junjian has been teaching at the School of Journalism and Communication, Tsinghua University. Students affectionately call him "Guide Liang". The courses he teaches have opened the door for many young students to understand images and society; Documentary director, his works such as "Song of the Great River" and "A Piece of Rice Paper" have become the preservation of video China.

After ten years of filming, Liang Dao's vision spans documentary and anthropology.

For him, the field may have two meanings: it is not only a vivid anthropological scene, but also a field of knowledge and imagination. In front of the camera, he records the images of the fields; in the classroom, he develops the fields of images for more people.

1｜The Origin of Video: Ten Years of Classroom

 Q: Your current research direction is quite broad, including the fields of image anthropology, media and society. When exactly did your academic interests begin to develop?

A: I gradually became interested in academics at the postgraduate level. Because from the beginning of my undergraduate studies, I wanted to change departments, and until the first and second years of graduate school, I preferred to be creative, documentary photographer and director. But after the postgraduate, the personal vision has been further broadened. Looking back now, I actually benefited from a series of courses from the School of Journalism and Communication and the School of Humanities and Social Sciences at that time, including Teacher Luo Gang's Literature and Art, Teacher Ge Fei's Novel Narratology, and later I chose Teacher Wang Hui and Qin Hui. The teacher's class and so on, but the most important of these is probably Zhang Xiaojun's class on anthropology. After listening to these lectures slowly, I began to find that understanding and answering social questions more deeply through research materials and social phenomena is a particularly challenging thing for me, and I also particularly enjoy doing it. At that time, the teacher Lei Jianjun, who taught me documentary, happened to be a half-year visiting student at the University of Manchester, and brought back the concept of interdisciplinary, such as film and television anthropology. I've found a lot in common with the fieldwork of anthropology in my favorite field of documentary filmmaking. So when I was in my second year of research, I began to consider whether to pursue a Ph.D. Later, I got the opportunity to do a PhD in advance and continued to do research in the field of imaging.

 Q: Your academic path may have benefited in part from the broad-based general education you were exposed to as an undergraduate. At present, many universities in China, including Tsinghua University, are promoting general education. In the process of promoting video education, how do you view the role of general education?

A: General education allows students to use these courses to get to know top scholars in different fields, and to feel the way they think about problems and their attitude towards the world, which is the most important for the humanities field. It is not necessary to say much about their extensive knowledge and profound theory, but their attitude towards the world and their knowledge, and the unique and diverse spiritual world they provide is the core value. The current society under the full division of labor does not support or cultivate generalists, because when we finally enter the society, whether we are engaged in research or industrial work, we must basically be specialists. Knowledge education is established for young people.

 Q: Do you think film and television education should be promoted as part of general education?

A: I think it is necessary, and I have been trying for years. There are two main reasons for this. The first aspect is that, as a popular text in modern society, film and television will inevitably be associated with various fields of society. Some of the cutting-edge issues we are encountering now, and the tests and anxieties we have experienced in terms of values and ethics, will definitely be reflected in the film. So we will see that the types of movies are becoming more diverse - with the development of modern technology, there are sci-fi movies; now that artificial intelligence is developing rapidly, we have a lot of movies to reflect on artificial intelligence issues, to think about multiverse issues, etc. . In this sense, film, including popular TV series, is an allegory and a means of helping us think about the wider human condition. We can think about politics through movies, history through movies, and the future through movies.

On the other hand, I also realized the general value of film and television education when I was in school these years, and when we took our classmates out to shoot documentaries and do the Qingying Workshop during the summer vacation of my sophomore year. Most of the students will not directly engage in video creation after graduation, but with the help of video creation, everyone can know themselves through the lens, interact with different worlds, expand their life experience, and reflect on this process. attitude towards others. So I think video creation as a context for communicating with people can stimulate creativity and train us to work as a team - especially in the task of teaming up to make documentaries. In addition, I think the most important thing is that images have opened up multiple ways for us to communicate with the world. So I think from these two perspectives, video education is very valuable as general education.

 Q: Have you encountered some stories and experiences that impressed you in the process of teaching?

A: Actually, every year when I look at your homework and works, I am still very touched. But if I am most impressed, I think it was when I was challenged by my classmates in class. In fact, this is also a process of continuous teaching and learning in teaching. Every year, some students question my taste and my requirements for everyone's homework. For example, I will ask everyone to know as much information about the subject as possible when shooting homework, and ask everyone to shoot a person repeatedly. , to build deep trust and interpersonal relationships. Many students will think, is this exploiting the subject? Wouldn't it be okay if I wanted to be able to take a different image? I didn't take the initiative to think about some of these issues in the early years of teaching. I was passing on the video education I received and a set of methods and values that I have slowly summarized in some works. However, when I constantly encountered feedback, questions and discussions from my classmates in class, I also began to think about why I have such a set of values, and I was also thinking about how much I should lead the content of the course as a teacher How should I better combine my own creative experience and teaching experience with the situation where everyone creates and learns intuitively.

On the other hand, every time I see everyone's work, it is a particularly important encouragement for me. For students of any personality and background, video is not only valuable for reporting, but it does provide an important resource for the growth of classmates. This will also motivate me to create and teach better myself. These are some of the things that I particularly remember during the teaching process.

 Q: You just mentioned that you will try to teach some of the methods and values you have learned to your classmates in the classroom, so what methods and values do you hope students can learn through video education now?

A: First of all, in the process of using images, the first step must be to learn a series of knowledge and skills. Everyone must master the camera, composition, lighting, editing, and basic audio-visual language. And in this process, everyone has to understand and think about their own subjects.

The second point is that everyone has to learn to invest for a long time and continue to polish. Because the learning of images is actually the learning of a language. Whether we are learning our mother tongue or a foreign language, we are mastered in the process of constantly reciting words, reading and writing a lot, and mastering images is the same. Therefore, I think video as a technology and art requires continuous training, imitation, and challenge of existing habits. I especially hope that if you really like video, you must invest in it - because no effort is paid. You can't rely on the "talent," "whim," or "moment of glamour" you expect to achieve your dreams, but it takes a lot of hard work and time investment to get you to create good work at the right time.

Going a step further, I hope that everyone should first develop a sense of intimacy and curiosity about the subject matter and specific shooting situations. The subject is not a task, but an uncharted territory waiting to be learned, or even in the process of learning, that may break your head. Have the courage and curiosity to open this black box that you don't know much about - I prefer to understand it as the courage to know the world. Many times we live in our comfort zone, consciously or unconsciously avoiding some of the realities that may sting us.

Next is the so-called humanistic care based on understanding and tolerance, or a humanistic spirit. Words such as "humanistic spirit" or "humanistic care" are often abused and become a kind of self-motivation or cheap pity, a kind of charity from the top down. Try to understand and recognize others, but also admit that sometimes we really can't fully understand other people's feelings, we can only listen and accept the impossibility of "complete understanding" and the limited ability of our empathy . However, we still have to try our best to understand, to express, and to recognize that this is flawed and incomplete.

Creation is a process of "opening the blind box". Sometimes all the conditions are met, and the things you shoot will resonate with many people, but sometimes because the technical conditions and the situation at the time are not ideal, the things you shoot may only impress a few people or even only yourself, but this also It doesn't mean failure. That's the last point, how we should think about our creations. Don't look at the impact of traffic with a utilitarian attitude, but take images as a part of life to understand its longer-term value to yourself and the people you report on.

 Q: You talked about your analysis and observation of post-90s creators in your article earlier. In the ten years from the post-90s to the post-00s, many changes have taken place in technology, equipment and social mentality. What new trends and changes do you think the post-00s students have?

A: First of all, the creators of the post-00s generation have definitely increased their familiarity with technology and equipment. I think today's college students have more or less experience in making their own videos, and most of all, they will also do some vlogs, cut some small videos and send them to social networks. Moreover, the opportunities for people to watch various film and television texts are increasing, and video has increasingly become our mainstream cultural form. Therefore, the sense of technophobia, or the technical threshold that needs to be crossed to pick up a camera, is getting lower.

But less difficulty also means that we tend to “slide” through the training interval from amateur to professional, which helps us reflect on what technology can and cannot do. Because we often create with a natural technical optimism, and are less aware of the defects and problems of imaging technology.

Another point is that with the development of society and media, this generation must have more knowledge and social breadth than the previous generation. But in turn, this increase in fragmented knowledge does not ensure an increase in understanding of society,

When we have too much knowledge, our ability to understand will degrade. Because after the information explosion, we no longer cherish the information, no longer summarize the information, and become more and more accustomed to believing the conclusions unconsciously. This may be the general impact of the information overload on us.

2｜What is Image: Virtual, Real and Private Narrative

 Q: You just talked about the impact of the current information explosion on the entire film and television creation and even the younger generation. I saw that you also talked about the changes brought by emerging short videos to the form of audio-visual discourse in your article published last year. As a researcher, what trends do you think the imaging field will have in the future?

A: First, the context in which images are used has now been greatly expanded. We can now use images as an alternative to text in everything we do, and often images are more popular. In the future, I think images will break through the characteristics of the earliest "mechanical reproduction" of photography and film to a greater extent. For example, when we meet face-to-face in online conferences now, the background of people can be virtual. With the metaverse and stronger computing power, in the future, even our faces may be virtual: we make our own faces. After 3D scanning and letting the AI learn, maybe I don't even need to turn on the camera, my face will appear on the screen. In the future, the integration between video and artificial intelligence will be even tighter.

And now brain-computer technology is also developing. We know that when the brain thinks, there is an image. When thinking, sometimes a picture appears first, and then language is used to organize the pictures and images that appear in the mind. So after having a brain-computer interface, will we not need to go through the level of words and language, but we can also communicate between people directly through images? I think this is going to be some big change that we can see in our lifetime.

Another aspect is that the virtual simulation characteristics of images are becoming more and more obvious. Especially after the naked-eye 3D technology is released in the future, our ability to perceive the environment with the help of images will change, and the reshaping and acquisition of our personal experience may also change.

 Q: You should have also paid attention to a video about "Second Uncle" recently. This video was revoked by station b because of its fictitious content, which also caused further controversy and discussion. What do you think of the trade-off between reality and fiction in such documentary footage?

A: The real ethics of documentaries has always been a topic of discussion. A more traditional point of view now holds that, first of all, documentaries must have real characteristics, but this kind of truth is not necessarily completely objective truth, it is the truth produced by the creator's subjective creation of objective and real images. We generally think that authenticity lies in the fact that the material is real first - of course, this will also be challenged by some images, such as animated documentaries that are now more and more recognized. The animation is definitely not the reality that is mechanically reproduced, but is constructed based on real historical materials and individual memories of history. In addition, it also includes the rehearsal paragraphs that we often see in TV documentaries, especially in some historical documentaries, actors are used to restore the scene in the studio according to historical materials. This is not "real", but a bit like animation. , all use our images today to help everyone understand the limited historical records.

So I guess the authenticity of documentaries fluctuates in a range: the most extreme is the most strictly defined authenticity, and this authenticity is often difficult to achieve because once we set up the camera, we have the lens The choice of where to target is actually processing and constructing the so-called reality. So I think there is no absolute truth in documentaries, only relative truth.

It is the subject of action, the creator, and of course the audience, the subject's understanding of reality, a representation and a reconstruction.

 Q: Could you briefly introduce the subject of video anthropology, which is still very new in mainland China.

A: Video anthropology is a more reflective and proactive video creation and targeted research based on anthropological research and cultural understanding.

Historically, the discipline has gone through several different stages of development. The earliest stage is that anthropologists use cameras and video cameras to record in fieldwork, including portraits, material culture and ritual culture records, because video records will be more intuitive and informative than words. After a period of development, a group of anthropological filmmakers went beyond simple records and hoped to use audiovisual language as a parallel method to written ethnography. Because traditional anthropological works, such as Voyager of the Western Pacific, are written in words. In the 1950s and 1960s, a group of anthropological film workers or directors of anthropological films believed that audiovisual languages, documentaries, and even films could be used to complete ethnography and the complete expression of community culture, not just It's as simple as filming them into an archival database. In the process of using images as a language for organizing thoughts, people find that images and words have different biases in cultural expression and ethnographic writing because of the differences in the characteristics of the media. Therefore, in addition to making anthropological films and documentaries, researchers have also begun to slowly study the characteristics of the image itself as a medium, such as some characteristics of linguistics. In addition, there are also a group of scholars who do film and television anthropology or visual anthropology who tend to study how different cultural groups use visual means, including the use of visual symbols such as rock paintings by ethnic groups without words to express and organize their social life, including today's How people from different cultural backgrounds view and use images - film and television anthropology includes some such studies.

 Q: If it is said that images in documentary works are not completely real, then what is the role of images in the study of image anthropology?

A: In the process of research, an image is of course first and foremost an archive. For example, a traditional ceremony took place in front of me. I could record it with images and constantly review these images to analyze details that I might not have noticed at the scene. This is the importance of archives and records. It can make up for the incompleteness of human cognition.

On the other hand, it is similar to the educational function of the image just mentioned, that is to say, the image is a way of entering and communicating. When we have images, we are actually intervening with our subjects and the communities we study; and when others see you come in with a camera, they will also realize that you are recording their lives , which will promote more communication and even cooperation between us and the subject. If images are used well, we can help subjects show what they think of the world and help researchers better understand their worldview.

I previously filmed "A Piece of Rice Paper", which is a documentary about handmade paper in the south related to intangible cultural heritage. I was living in the subject's house at the time. I am used to sorting out the material at night, but the subject is very enthusiastic and often chats with me at night, so it gradually becomes that we watch the material together. When he sees his life and his craftsmanship in my camera, he will add a lot of new information to me, and we will have further discussions around the footage. He will evaluate my material and give more suggestions. From his feedback and suggestions, my understanding of his skills and his worldview will continue to be strengthened. At this time, video provides a channel for cooperation and communication, not just recording.

 Q: Different from serious academic creations like video anthropology, there have been many independent documentaries recently, and “private images” and “family images” have also appeared in large numbers. What do you think of such independent, underground personal creations?

A: They have their own unique value. Because they are more personal expressions, which means that in the process of expression, independent documentaries are more closely related to personal experience and the "small world", making it easier for us to recognize and understand the richness of this world and diversity. Just as the Anthropological Society is influenced by its disciplinary norms, documentaries broadcast in the mass media are influenced by industry norms and viewing markets, all of which are bound by a strong external structure. Of course, independent documentaries, even personal creations like vlogs, are not so-called completely valueless and completely free of standpoints. Instead, their individuality is obvious. Therefore, when we watch such works, we see what they record. The objective life that came down also saw how different individuals combined their subjective cognition and subjective emotion with the life they experienced. This is an integral part of today's platforms of mass communication.

3｜Video Practice: Warming the World with Video

 Q: I learned that you will participate in the selection of some film festivals. During the process of participating in the selection of film festivals, have you encountered any experiences or works that impressed you?   

A: In the past two years, I watched a documentary that impressed me very much, called "The Flat", a documentary filmed by a young Israeli director in 2011. When the protagonist was cleaning up the relics of his deceased grandfather, he accidentally discovered that his grandfather had kept several Nazi newspapers. This is completely contrary to his previous understanding of his grandfather, who experienced World War II and the Holocaust and was a patriot who fought heroically against the Nazis. So he wondered why his grandfather kept the Nazi press. Later, he further discovered that his grandfather had a very good friend who was actually a Nazi officer. So he began to visit his mother and father, and then tortuously found the descendants of his maternal grandfather's friend to interview. Of course, the interviewees were tight-lipped on these topics, but through tireless efforts, he miraculously recovered this personal history.

Such a thing seems unlikely to us today, but the history of individuals and the history of the country did produce a particularly complex and diverse interweaving at that time, which was beyond our stereotypes and general perceptions of history. Documentary. The film is as personal as it is—a grandchild’s exploration of the life of one’s grandparents, but also a very public topic—and it reflects on how we should understand different aspects of history.

 Q: Can you talk about some recent research directions or shooting interests?

A: I have been shooting a documentary about migrant children since 2017, and it is still in the post-production process. This film is about the choir of Dandelion Middle School, a group of junior high school students who have been living in Beijing since childhood. Through the stories of them and music, we can see the development of the city and try to understand how the teenagers treat life.

In addition, I continue to pay attention to some themes related to intangible cultural heritage and history. For example, I have been photographing local Taoist folk customs in northern Shaanxi all these years. There is also a topic that I particularly like, but I haven't started filming it yet. It is an old Chinese saying that "relying on the mountains to eat the mountains, and relying on the water to drink water". In our traditional Chinese culture, the relationship between people and mountains, rivers and plants is very rich. This is what I began to experience when I was shooting "A Piece of Rice Paper". After arriving in the south, I found that there are many flowers, plants and animals that I can't name at all, but these rice paper craftsmen will tell us where this thing grows, what it tastes, and what it can be used for. In the traditional life of the past, people developed a particularly valuable knowledge and affection for all things in nature. I especially hope to express the life of people who are still living beside the mountains and rivers, raising cattle and sheep, and the natural poetic relationship between man and nature through video.

 Q: There are many young students and creators who hope to pick up the machine to shoot, but they may encounter various obstacles from themselves or the outside world. As a senior, what advice and reminders do you have for them?

A: I think there are two complementary aspects. First, if you don’t want to create on a whim, but you want to create it, it means that the image is of unique value to your personal life experience, then find an opportunity to make it happen—regardless of whether it is well realized or not. it is good. Even if it is not good, it is a life experience that will eventually become the nutrient for personal growth.

Second, still be cautious before starting. After all, shooting takes a lot of time and energy, not only for yourself but also for others, and it will also affect your social relationships. It is precisely because it is a very expensive thing to start shooting, so it must be carefully prepared and fully researched in advance. Further, in the process of doing it, you must constantly motivate yourself. Basically, every documentary I make is full of self-doubt for a period of time. I feel that this film may not be made, and I think this film may be the worst film I have ever made. At this time, I must learn Face your emotions and anxieties head on, and find ways to motivate yourself. For example, I will chat with others and watch a few good documentaries.

 Q: The slogan of the Qingying studio you participated in is "Warm the world with images". How do you understand the significance of images to this era?

A: First of all, as I talked about before, an image is an archive. We imagine that in one or two hundred years, to understand China and the planet in the early 21st century, we may gain a lot of knowledge from images that cannot be obtained in words.

On the other hand, for society, images are a particularly important soil for human beings to communicate emotionally and build consensus. Why today many videos like Erji detonate the whole network is actually because they condense some of our consensus and express some of our common psychological anxieties and common expectations. Although this video may be exaggerated and untrue, and there are parts of whitewashing suffering, on the other hand, we must also admit that this video does meet our psychological needs today, and its strong dissemination power in a short period of time means that we need Use images to express and vent.

 Q: Finally, I would like to ask you to recommend one or two documentaries or one or two books to beginners who want to enter the video world.

A: There is one film that I particularly like, and I think it is very helpful for students who want to learn documentaries. The name of this documentary is "Where there is Mamoruichi Kumagai", it is a very quiet documentary, it doesn't seem to have any suspense or strong tension, but it embodies a unique poetry of life, and small But a wonderful life experience.

The second recommendation is a book that I would recommend to you in my film and television production class, "Story" by Robert McKee. This book is first and foremost a screenwriter's guide, but it is especially valuable for fictional screenwriters and for the expression of documentaries. On the other hand, books are also very theoretical, showing us why humans like stories so much, and can bring us cultural inspiration.

For a long time, my fascination with images remained at the level of spectacle - I admired it as a perfect medium of expression, but kept a distance from it, just like my life, in Tsinghua Garden. In the face of the rush of pedestrians all day long, I was devastated.

Until Director Liang's first class, his first assignment was to shoot a group of photos with the theme of "I". In this class, we are asked to communicate, connect with the subject and of course connect with ourselves while taking pictures.

Only since then have I really touched the image. Video should not only exist as a technology, a form of entertainment, it should become a bridge of understanding. During the interview, whenever he talked about his favorite images and his own creations, Mr. Liang was always happy and sincere. I think for him, images have become a kind of life. and ideals of educational practice.

Text | Jiang Yifan

Figure | From interviewees

Review | Tong Bu Si Yan Bing

Editor | Li Jingxuan

matters editor｜Xing Yixuan

Around the Fire (ID: weilu_flame)