Homeland Plan | Tang Guanhua: We can withdraw from involution

The content of this article is the exchange between Tang Guanhua, the co-founder of the Homeland Project (AnotherLand), and Shu Shaohuan, a reporter from "New Weekly". Part of the interview was published in "New Weekly" Issue 22 in 2021 | Total Issue No. 599, entitled "DIY Folk Wisdom" revival".

Tang Guanhua

as a concept art creator.

In the past ten years, he has explored a self-sufficient and sustainable way of life in the mountains and forests of China's great rivers north and south, redefining and practicing the concept of "consensus community" in China. Author of "The Way of Independence".

Below is the full transcript of the conversation:

misappropriated land

Shu Shaohuan:

In fact, I have been paying special attention to the southern living community. I just want to ask the current progress of that community, including the overall construction of that community, and the living facilities, that is, how is the overall progress? It is or is recent.

Tang Guanhua:

The overall progress is relatively stable, just ten of you may live here for a long time, and then live here, and then each has their own living space, rented houses, etc., and then we will have some or like. In the past, there will be some of this, and sometimes we will occasionally do some external activities, and then sometimes everyone will basically get together by themselves. Every week, everyone may have a meal with each other, or carry out some small activities by themselves. Activity.

I usually have my own busy schedule, but I am willing to spend time living here because of this way of life, but we cannot live here because of the nature of the land we are currently in, and because of illegal construction in the past few years. Building on the mountain, to make the living space we want to do, originally wanted to do it on the mountain. Later, due to the nature of the land, he did not allow it and the policy did not allow it, so it was said that it was not built, and then we basically lived in the village. live there.

Shu Shaohuan:

Understood, I have heard or seen reports before, that is, you actually had some space of your own on that mountain before, for example, remember that there was a trailer that was converted into an RV, and then these are still there. ?

Tang Guanhua:

These are still there, because these are the fixed buildings that it is not. Then there are some that I have improved. It is not considered a fixed building. I am also trying to explore this way. Can it be said, because it is actually on the mountain. If you have to work on the mountain and hope to attract some people, it is If young people or some people who like rural life can stay, stay here to work, and build here, then this is actually quite a challenge. Because many people are not really used to this state, and then You have to go to work, you have to walk a lot, and then you have to farm, and then you have to store tools, right? Then every day, if you have to go to the place where you live in the morning and at night, if there is still a distance from the place where you work, and so on, there are many inconveniences. For modern people, this is not particularly convenient. This kind of state, and then it may be difficult for people to work in the field all day long, and then willing to invest in it, so I thought very much, that is, the space for labor and the space for living can be together, yes, it is very close. , and then even take a bath and eat something. Right? It's all very convenient, and then you plant all kinds of things, it becomes a very relaxed and leisure thing, which is my expectation. Then everyone will work naturally and will not feel like a burden.

Shu Shaohuan:

The ones on the hill are just simple structures. Or are they stored there? Where does it exist, isn't it?

Tang Guanhua:

Yes, yes, there are some simple ones, which can't be called buildings, they are some simple ones, that is, some small sheds or small spaces for rest, basically there are not many, that is, some tents or something.

Shu Shaohuan:

Understand and understand, okay, that is other things, for example, because in fact, I was talking about self-sufficiency before, so what about other parts besides the possibility of living? For example, what are the possibilities of other parts of life Is it self-sufficiency that has to be done by oneself?

Tang Guanhua:

This means that you have to have a particularly strong willpower, which means that if you want to practice this thing, just like I said just now, you have to have such a kind of your production, your life will be all over the place. You have to be able to work, because it's hard, that is, the reality of the moment makes you very tired, and then you have to have a kind of investment. So this is the thing that we are basically self-sufficient now, because I I feel that being limited by this, this land, this kind of policy, and such a situation, it is actually more difficult for us. Then we may only have one or two people, and we can continue to work every day for the past five years. Going to the mountains to work, going in the morning, and then working hard until the evening. For young people, this is very rare, but it is not easy. It is a very tiring thing for him, and it is a very hard thing, and then he has to Just because of these things, even if you are very inconvenient, even the rent in the village where we live will go up, right?

Because we don’t have a place to live, and we are not from this village, we are not locals here, so when we encounter these problems, we will feel that, even though it is already hard, it may be even more difficult. For example, if there is such a rent or other costs, it will indeed.

Shu Shaohuan:

So you are saying that there may be, for example, there may be some young people, who may go to work every day, who may be mainly producing this part of the food, right?

Tang Guanhua:

Vegetables and grains are grown.

Shu Shaohuan:

For example, in 2019, in fact, under your circumstances, the main living space of most people was still on the mountain, right?

Tang Guanhua:

Yes, we all lived in the mountains for a while.

Shu Shaohuan:

I understand, I am quite interested in that experience, that is, if it was on a mountain, for example, it was the house where everyone lived, such as the kind of tent you set up, or some simple things were made by yourself. ?

When you did that, I remember that you had a trailer before, and a simple semi-circular house in front of it, right? The dome, yes, how long did it take?

Tang Guanhua:

Make that fast, we make these fast, just a few weeks.

Shu Shaohuan:

Got it, what about all those materials? It’s the material that was made nearby, just to see what can be used and use it. The dome you used is the most commonly used material in the village, right?

Tang Guanhua:

A wood plank.

Shu Shaohuan:

Got it, what about the trailer at the back? The whole thing, like its production cycle?

Tang Guanhua:

I used that one for a month. Before I demolished the material from the house, they wouldn't allow it to be built. We demolished some houses and made it into this.

Shu Shaohuan:

Got it, demolished the house, got it, that's actually what's inside, for example, some things in your daily life, for example, some supplies in your daily life are also made by yourself?

Tang Guanhua:

Some of the daily life has some soap and so on, and some of this is basically electricity. We have some of our own solar energy, and we have done wind power and wind power generation in the past, and then the food we eat is basically self-sufficient before. When I was there, I tried my best to eat some of the vegetables I grew myself, potatoes, and chickens and eggs.

Shu Shaohuan:

I understand, I understand, in fact, at that stage, it should be a self-sufficient lifestyle that you want to achieve, including the whole family plan, right?

Tang Guanhua:

Of course, of course.

Shu Shaohuan:

Understood, understood.

Tang Guanhua:

Then how to say, this thing is because we want to achieve or want what? In fact, it is not to say one, but one by one, it means that we can do it if we want, and that is to say, we actually do more, in fact, to see if there is such space , so that people can live by their hands in nature, build and live, such a space. Is there such a possibility in today's era? In fact, we very much hope to strive for this possibility. Yes, of course, it does not mean that we have to be able to achieve this, because if it cannot be achieved, it is normal. That is to say, for various reasons, it may not be achieved, but if it cannot be achieved, we will also. Let's find out why this is not possible. And then put these reasons and let more people know. For example, like I told you these policy land, there is no building land, right? Then he can't do this, but where did he go with the building land? Hasn't the construction land been used by real estate, and the real so-called agricultural land and land are now being used, isn't it? In fact, it has not been used, because farmers are not farming now, and many are deserted, so the current grain, the current national grain, has a red line, that is to say, it cannot fall below the red line, which is a guarantee for the people of the whole country. Well, food security, in order not to lower the red line index of this food, real estate needs to be developed. In fact, real estate has already misappropriated a lot of farmland.

They converted some farmland into construction land, then built buildings or something, and then, they turned some wasteland or some of those lands into so-called farmland, land that is difficult to cultivate, and then converted it into indicators. In this case, from the perspective of indicators, the amount of farmland in China has not declined, but the amount of available farmland is actually declining, but it is actually building buildings, and in fact building these buildings to make some money, that really means, we The point I want to explore is such a space to survive and live by self-reliance, but it exists in the cracks. It actually reflects many social problems.

Although it is difficult to achieve, why is it difficult to achieve? He also reflects one of various aspects, that is, reality and economy. What he has done to this era and our future is not only an impact on me or our ideals, but also an impact on us. That is to say, what kind of influence does our industrial civilization and modern civilization have on the future and the future direction of the entire human group?

In fact, in us, he is actually more of a microcosm, for example, a place that demolishes our house, or he thinks that we are a behavior, and he cannot allow it. In fact, this also refers to everyone. It's just that people are just chasing a land to support themselves, right? It's just a piece of land, a person is just a piece of land to eat, that's just such a thing, as a city, we have an urban hukou, he doesn't have that, I don't have the land for me in the countryside, right? So can I complete a natural person coming into the world, a person no matter where I have a household registration, can I have a land of my own, or not my land, I don’t need it in our country, I don’t Need the land to be mine, but I can use it, right? It is a right of use. Can I use it reasonably to form a living family of my own? This is a question we want to discuss. It concerns whether everyone has this possibility and whether they can get rid of this so-called A market-oriented competition, a relatively bad, such a consumerist living environment and social environment, can we withdraw from this involuted urbanization?

Is it possible to live an independent life? Just exploring this.

Shu Shaohuan:

I think I very much agree with what you said, and then I think it is actually, I think it is, you and the entire Homeland Project team have been doing this kind of exploration, whether it means that there may be some resistance, then This resistance may also be related to, for example, the status quo of national policies, but it does not mean that this status quo is reasonable. In fact, on the topic you just mentioned, it is actually all the These people who live in such big cities will pay attention to a topic that everyone will pay attention to. So as a person, I will pay special attention to you, for example, some of your plans, for example, you are currently exploring , and then some of your exploration progress. I want to go back a little bit before, for example, in 19 years, relatively speaking, it was when the use of this land was not so strict, and it was still everyone at that time. When you are all on the mountain, that scene you think is, for example, the whole thing is to explore, you will think that that is the kind of way of life, such as its difficulty, such as it or what you think it is. The feasibility, including the difficulty in it, can you please analyze it? Although there may be no way now, that is, it may not be fully achieved due to policy reasons, but maybe in 19 years, at that time, for example In other words, when you practice this kind of life as a completely natural person, you will experience some of your feelings in this way of life, including I remember that you said that 70% of things can be self-sufficient. Some of them can actually be self-sufficient on their own, but they are actually very curious about this one.

Tang Guanhua:

Do we have a recording of this exchange? If so, send me a copy.

Shu Shaohuan:

Done in a while, okay.

Tang Guanhua:

Because some things seem to be just fine, if there is a record, it may be a valuable record.

Shu Shaohuan:

I am recording, I am recording, and I will pass it on to you when I return.

Village Committee and State Council

Tang Guanhua:

The question you just talked about is actually the goal of our practice, that is, to explore the extent to which it can meet the necessities and happiness of our life. In fact, in my opinion, in my personal practical experience, I think it can be done completely.

Suppose, if we are given a special zone, if we are given a special zone in terms of policy, this special zone allows us some actions, such as allowing us to farm, and the other is allowing us to build, even if The living space for this build doesn't need to be very large. Let me give an example. A very famous architect is called Le Corbusier. His architectural style has influenced our modern architecture, such as cement. He designed so many high-rise buildings. He lives by himself. The place, the living space for himself, is only 9 square meters, which is smaller than my RV. In such a small space, his necessities are enough. That is to say, in fact, the space that people need does not need to be very large, so our goal is not to build a so-called villa or high-rise building in an open place, in fact, it needs a very small space, and this space can completely satisfy people's needs. A sense of security (larger space for activity in outdoor nature). This is for living in hardware. It allows us to build a construction area between 9 square meters and 20 square meters. Everyone has such an area, and each of us has about two acres of arable land, then we can Growing food and vegetables, within two acres, if you plant it, you can basically support yourself. In this case, within the scope of this two mu, you can raise one, seven, eight, or ten poultry, such as chickens or ducks, which will provide you with a basic intake of meat protein. After that, what about , if you still have the conditions, you can raise other animals. Of course, we can actually go into a vegetarian state on a large level in our lives. In fact, you can be vegetarian for a lot of time, and it does not affect your physical condition. If the food we ingest is fresh and organic, it is a healthy food without the use of chemical fertilizers, pesticides, and herbicides. There are fruits, if we live collectively, we can have an orchard. The fruit in this orchard actually provides very sufficient nutrition. If we have such an area, there are orchards (woodland) and arable land. If there is construction land and these three indicators can be achieved, then I think there are a group of people who love labor, people who love labor, even if it is three people, as few as three people, as large as 300 people, I think it is within this range It forms a community of rural life, a kind of rural community. The living community is also called a consensus community. It has a common understanding of life. Such people, who have common values and walk together, can live a completely sustainable life. , and it is very friendly to the environment, and the entire ecological environment is particularly friendly.

To build these living spaces, we talked about four parts. For example, architecture is ecological architecture, then ecological architecture involves several dimensions. It has to be related to light, water, and its input and output, so as to achieve an ecological impact. It is friendly and can even achieve the concept of so-called zero energy consumption. In this way, the impact of its building itself on nature will be minimized, including the materials of the building itself, which can be returned to nature and become part of nature again. A: The energy flows through people, and after people use it, it returns to a cycle of nature, an organic cycle. In this way man does the least harm to nature. One is ecological architecture, the other is natural food, using natural ecological methods to produce food, as well as this environmentally friendly daily necessities, coupled with sustainable energy. As for this energy, we use the method that minimizes environmental pollution to obtain what we need, and we also carry out a very energy-saving life, reduce our electricity consumption, and at the same time, in terms of energy conversion, we reduce part of energy conversion. In fact, I think the bigger one is not saving, but reducing the conversion link. There is a big problem in the conversion link, because of the current centralized power supply system, although it can bring us the convenience of taking electricity at any time, such a collective It has a problem with the function of power supply. It is through thermal power generation, fuel power generation, fuel power generation, coal or something. This actually affects our current global warming by a relatively large proportion. Coal is burned through combustion, whether it is burning The release of methane or the release of other components, it produces this electrical energy is equivalent to converting the thermal energy of combustion into a mechanical energy, kinetic energy, he has already carried out these conversions from thermal energy to kinetic energy to electrical energy. Then the electric energy enters our home again, and it undergoes another conversion, because each device we use may have its own conversion, that is to say, after the electric energy comes in again, for example, cooking, and then use it In an induction cooker, in fact, electrical energy has to be converted into heat energy, which means that it returns to the original heat energy, and the middle is actually all consumption.

In the beginning, the heat was used to cook directly, but in the end, after such a large circle, there are consumables in the middle to transmit electricity, yes, and there is also a substation so far away to transmit electricity to you, We are using it again. The source is the heat energy to be used, and the heat is also released. This process is equivalent to its conversion cycle. This number of energy conversions consumes this energy to a large extent. This is a big aspect. For example, we use a lot of electric equipment, and we have to convert this electrical energy into kinetic energy, yes, and even the heat energy conversion is actually the most lossy, because we need heating in many places. , needs heating, needs cooking, these are actually the source itself without going through this conversion. For example, many other light energy sources we are talking about now, such as gaseous energy and liquid energy, may be a trend in the future, because electricity is still stored in this world. We have not reached our goal, and the development of technology has not yet reached the use goal. As far as our current battery is concerned, the capacity of the battery and its storage life have not improved much compared to when we first invented electricity, but our electricity consumption has not improved much. The demand for volume has been rapidly increased, so it is not proportional.

If we talk about the technology of energy storage in the future, if we do not carry out a revolution, it is possible that our energy source and our global warming problem, etc., will be a fatal problem for many countries and all mankind. So now many, including the Chinese Academy of Sciences, our Chinese engineers, and scientists have proposed many new energy solutions, including using gaseous or liquid states to store electrical energy. In fact, it has a longer lifespan than the current battery, and there is no problem even storing it for a long time.

Including the fact that we have used it before cooking, the solar cooker. I don’t know if you understand it or not. It is a device that directly uses the reflected light of the sun to generate heat energy. This device actually does not pass through the part of electricity or the part that burns. You don’t even need to burn wood. It is directly attached to glass. On a curved surface carrier, the glass is a one-time burnt glass, and the glass has a long life. Then we only need to clean the glass and aim it at the sun. Our real energy The source is the source of the energy of the earth, and then it directly shoots our glass, and after it is finished, it is reflected to a focal point, and its focal temperature can directly reach 1000 degrees, then this 1000 degrees can be directly used for cooking. Energy, there is no other loss, even heat is not a loss, it itself is heat. So there are many ways that can be achieved in personal life. In what we call a consensus community of 3 to 300 people, it is possible to achieve a friendly environment. I think this is possible and I have achieved it. passed.

So it's because we don't have such a special zone now, no one has been approved by the state to give us such a special zone, or we don't know where to apply for such a land. As a result of our systematic way of life, it cannot form a very mature sample. I'm actually telling you, I'm a little surprised that there is no such a place in such a big country. Because you are the media, for example, we are doing things, but the people who do things are not necessarily like me. I already value this communication the most. Sometimes I will create a website and issue an official account. I have paid more attention to the circulation of this information. But because I believe that the circulating information can allow more people to find and understand each other, but other neighbors in my community basically do not have this awareness and concept. They are basically doing their own work. Like I told you, he is already very tired from farming every day. He can no longer have time to post a public account or edit information, and he feels very annoying to take a photo. "Why do you keep taking pictures of me? Don't come in and work with me when you have time."

So in such a situation, he has no chance to find such a suitable land for him. I especially hope that there will be an opportunity to circulate the information that people need. Maybe there are some related national projects that can be applied for, it can have such conditions, and there may even be some current policies of our country. As far as I know, according to many of my friends, there are many policies. This support from the villages, as well as for this, whether it is for the youth, for the villages, or for the ecological environment, are actually very powerful, and they are all national policies. This kind of support, including rural revitalization strategies, including pastoral complexes, ecological sustainability, and construction of ecological civilization, is actually in line with our entire concept of practice, but it is only Because I don't know how to apply. In our place, in a village, first of all, we cannot go to leapfrog communication. Right? We can't go directly to the State Council to talk about this, right, we can only communicate from the village level to level, but the people from the cadres and leaders in the village do not have this kind of awareness, they may I wanted to respond to this national policy, but their knowledge level and their experience made them not know what we were doing, and they didn’t know how to support it. At the county level and the township level leaders, the situation is similar, that is, they go to the office of the leader behind closed doors, for example. We couldn’t find the person in charge at all. When we went to the so-called reception hall, the reception hall for the masses, we just asked us, what qualifications do you have, what unit do you belong to? I do not have the qualifications you need, but I can apply for any qualifications I need, right, but it seems that it is difficult to communicate between his official method and our private method. Every day they go to work and receive us, it becomes like a kind of habit, he won't put himself in the shoes to think about what you want to do, he just thinks about whether you can provide me with the documents I need, but I don't know what documents need to be provided. Yeah, right?

There seems to be an obstacle in our communication, that is, he thinks that I should prepare everything he needs, but I don't know what he needs, or he doesn't listen to me. What do I want to do? He just asked what documents can I provide? In fact, this is that his language is different from mine, right? He seems to think that he doesn't have time to listen to everyone, what the hell are you doing, all he needs is to quickly follow the rules, and the current system makes it difficult for me to do it... I don't know where to start cooperation.

Shu Shaohuan:

Indeed, I think I can understand that what you're doing doesn't know what to do.

Tang Guanhua:

The way I am thinking now is whether there is a way to meet the head of state. If he can pass by that place, even if it is a one-person congress representative or something, I can only stop the car, right? I or I can only go here, but if there are bodyguards, I don't dare to approach, I just don't know where to talk, and how can you talk to people in a few words? Right? How can I explain it right there? I have to let him understand what I have told you. I can't shout a few words or two. For example, if President Xi passes by Fuzhou several times, I will Standing around, I shouted a few words and he might not understand.

That's why I said that your recording is very important. After I talked to you about so many things, such as this recording, I can then use this recording and convert it into a podcast, for example, it can be replaced with some other format. , then maybe there may be a big difference between your manuscript and this recording, this manuscript, right? Surely you have to revise, edit or something, but maybe what I said directly, he may be anonymous through another form, and another form can also reflect some problems. Let's not talk about this for nothing. Because this part of the conversation is actually very important.

Shu Shaohuan:

I understand what you are saying. In fact, the whole possibility, for our country at present, this method may be relatively new, or it may be difficult for officials to understand at once, or they may Maybe I don't want to understand the obstacle you mentioned, but I think it's just like what you're doing. There may be more and more media reports through this kind of example. , or some of your own are actually some online dissemination, maybe it can promote the formulation of some things, because on the whole, what is actually promoting is the so-called rural revival, the so-called poverty alleviation, its policies The intensity is very strong, but it is just that its policy direction is not the same. He may have used his method, but I think it is also possible that it has not turned around.

The richer the more pain

Tang Guanhua:

I think there is also such a problem. It is due to the development of our entire country in that year, its positioning, and because of the global situation, it is a global transformation problem, that is, because of a globalization background. A country is logically similar to a small village. The problem it has to face is that in a global situation, the main way of development is economy, because it involves finance and economics, and it has become a major standard of globalization and a development standard. . Then there is an exchange method, which you can only follow as a country. Since the country wants to follow this development method, it also has to engage in economics, right?

So of course you have to do it locally, although on the one hand you are talking about the ecological environment, on the other hand you are talking about the economic benefits. There are several issues of the era, that is, economic issues. If it is still the main theme of the world, then you can't guarantee that your local village officials, or even the leaders at the first level, will still take care of them. The economy is the primary task, and the completion of economic indicators will become the primary task.

So now when it comes to rural revitalization, the chairman said: lucid waters and lush mountains are invaluable assets, right? What he means by this sentence is that he actually equates this economy with this environment, right? It is equivalent to becoming one, but how did he transform? Many people do not have this concept, many people do not have this knowledge reserve and this kind of experience, he does not have this kind of training and learning, he suddenly became this official, he has to be in charge of this area, and then he has to do things What is it? He still wants to drive this economy to generate income, how much income is generated in our county and so on. This is his work goal. If he always gives orders based on this work goal, then the cadre leaders at all levels, of course, he cares about the economy, but he does not care about the end and the economy. How can you? Taking care of the ecological environment? So rural revival, rural revitalization and development, so what exactly needs to be revitalized? In the end, it's not the economy that revives. Right?

In the end, it means that economic indicators have come up. What is the purpose of poverty alleviation? Is poverty alleviation due to lack of money, or is it because we lack the living state that obtains happiness, respect, and dignity, because sometimes the living state is indeed not only satisfied with money. Right? And on the other hand, what is the money used for? What is the money exchanged for? The exchange is for living materials, right? What is exchanged is these resources that can be exchanged for quality of life. So for poverty alleviation, can it be solved by giving money? Or let him learn how to make money, this will definitely solve the problem, let him enter the market, enter a so-called free market to compete, and then can make a person happy? May cause more pain! The greater probability will bring more pain, and it will be more painful than his original life. Maybe he will be involved in a survival pressure, life pressure, economic pressure, and even psychological pressure that he does not have. Faced with the psychological pressure of society, the pressure of being looked down upon by others.

There may not have been these problems in the past. People may care about their own grassland, a piece of land, etc., which may be good, but later, for example, they were brainwashed by urbanization information, showing you this famous brand, that fashion consumption, you You will find that you don't have any of these things, and after that, you will feel inferior, and then other so-called people who have these things will dangle in front of you, making you feel that you are very shameless. These are more painful than the original. So, what exactly do people need? Is it necessary or not, these so-called free economics, economic games, financial games brought about by these competitions and comparisons, right? Does this thing bring comfort and happiness?

Or a truly self-sufficient, a good environment, a happy, healthy body and mind. In the end, it can give people a sustainable life experience, so which one should people pursue?

Therefore, we are talking about a community of shared future, so this thing is very correct. Of course, this thing is not a matter of our country. It is a matter of global destiny. If these people in the world, including various countries, if they and these countries choose A survival model dominated by economy and the law of the jungle, then human beings will be farther and farther away from happiness. Now it is not a problem of one country, it is the same all over the world, especially those so-called developed countries with developed economies, if they do not take the lead in sharing the consciousness of altruism and sustainable friendship, that is to say, the future will be He guides him to an all-elitist society. Maybe some people ride on Musk's rocket and go to some other planet, while most people in underdeveloped regions and countries can only stay on this dry land. , is such a result.

So if the whole people don't wake up now and realize this problem, it will be the common people who will suffer in the end, because these so-called developed countries are all guiding them in a negative direction, which is probably what it means. Therefore, I have never said how our own country is doing. This is a global issue, especially some developed countries. If I can still have some advice on our country, I feel that it is particularly necessary to open it up. national self-sufficiency. I think it should be consistent with the national policy. Because our country has been advocating to re-open wasteland, make use of wasteland, etc., coupled with international trade restrictions, etc., we are actually moving towards a situation where we must be self-sufficient. But this kind of self-sufficiency should be considered fundamentally, from the perspective of people's life experience, and can no longer turn self-sufficiency into more money or more economic returns. If this is to make more money as a strategy for developing rural revival, what about economics and revival?

Now we are engaged in tourism and economy. The so-called culture is also engaged in cultural and creative industries and tourism industrial parks. Isn’t it just to let more people go to the countryside for consumption. Right? This process may result in greater waste, decoration, regardless of the cost, to create a special big homestay, and then set a very high price, several thousand or tens of thousands of yuan a day to receive, and then generate income, this is Rural Revival? Now some local governments give me a house, funds, and go to the village to do things. It is not that the government invites us, but why do they invite me to go there? The invitation is nothing more than thinking, come up with such a miraculously eye-catching Internet celebrity homestay inn, right? Then generate income for the local people, flock here, collect a ticket or drive the consumption of ordinary people. I'm not saying that this common man makes bad money. Rather, with this kind of thinking, in the end, he can't make people move toward a positive and healthy future. Even earning money is just the most basic line of food and clothing. And what we lack is not actually this thing. What we lack is the ability to obtain the ability to produce our own happiness and to grasp the sense of security in life. This money can only make us more and more uneasy, right? Only the ability to be self-sufficient can bring peace of mind. Instead of looking outward, our heart should look inward. These are two ways of development. If we really choose the self-sufficiency way of development nationwide, we should look inward, right?

We don’t have to compare ourselves with others. We have our own productivity and our own way of development. At least we have this. This may not be the whole thing, but we must at least have such reserves.

And I think some people now have this sense of responsibility, some young people have such a sense of responsibility, and even have such a desire to work, they are willing to contribute to human civilization and the sustainability of this species. Even willing to go to martyrdom, to sacrifice, willing to give up his youthful life, to invest in such labor.

So why does it mean that there is no such condition provided?

Shu Shaohuan:

I understand, fully understand, these issues you mentioned, including the question of seeking inward, I think it is worth reflecting on everyone, especially living in such a large system, in fact, everyone is forced to say , ok, I want to make money, if I want to be self-sufficient or if I want to be independent, how much money do I need to be independent, in fact, this is what many people will think about. This is really not the final question, nor should it be considered in the first place.

Tang Guanhua:

Yes, because this is not a problem at all, that is to say, money is in this problem. You want to live a self-sufficient life. How much money you save has nothing to do with this problem. I was only 2,000 yuan back then, so I could start doing this. How much do you need to spend? Even if you have no money now, you can rent a piece of land if you borrow a few thousand yuan.

Everyone's logic has never been turned around. I always feel that I am afraid that the money will not be enough. If this thing fails or something goes wrong, I have to find a way back. , After I have money, I will enter the retirement life in the future, and then I will be able to plant some land, which has become an imagination of the future.

But the fact is that this is the problem. In fact, it is a delay, and the best time is delayed. Because by then will you be able to grow the land yourself? When you are old, all you have to do is go to the doctor with the remaining money, because in order to earn this money, you have already invested a lot of this health cost. In fact, it is in a vicious circle. If you go to start, if everything is started, now this moment is the beginning of health, if you go to work, then start now, it is the beginning. Your own body and mind also began to change the environment, yes, the air also changed, and then your physical and mental state also changed, and then you started and you didn’t need much money, right, you also felt quite comfortable, and you went to rent in the countryside A house costs little at all, at least ten times less than renting a house in the city. You don't need to say buying a house, you can just rent a house, and even if your landlord is raising money or something, at least it's cheaper than in the city. Then I think that everyone has a little bit of skill. In terms of rural life, one is to get enough food and clothing for oneself. In addition, there are some places to spend money. We are not saying that there is no place to spend money. For example, I may need To go online, we may need to use some technological products, but some things cannot be made by ourselves and must be exchanged.

These things are actually not that difficult. In fact, it depends on what we want. If what we want is a complete life experience, rather than comparing with others to be happy, work is not difficult at all, because You don't need to make a lot of money. If you just need some basic things in life, you buy a computer, buy something, a mobile phone or go to the Internet to pay the network fee, the telephone fee, just these basic expenses, it will not just let you get involved in that. to some extent. Yes, you can go to work for these things. Even in the village, many young people in the village have no money. It is very simple to get a job, right? If you say that I really don’t have a skill, I’m not as good as others even in aesthetics, my brain is not as fast as others, my hands-on ability is relatively poor, I can’t do any handicraft, I can’t draw, and my works are nothing. No, it doesn't matter, work a little bit and go to the supermarket to stand for a while, even without standing, sitting. There are basically few people in the supermarket, and you can go to work with 2,000 yuan a month, and you can still surf the Internet there. Go do some work part-time, you can solve a basic living income. The key is to solve the basic needs of life, and then, is this what you want?

Can you get happiness from it, and get happiness from your other time and space.

minimal living needs

Shu Shaohuan:

Yes, I think that is what you said is particularly important, and I think it can be summed up as the smallest living needs. That is, when you think about this thing, you first want to understand it yourself, and secondly, you reduce the needs of this life to a very low level.

Tang Guanhua:

Yes, what you said about the minimum living needs is too right. I think the reason why many people are particularly anxious, for example, I need to earn more money, I need to buy a house, what do I need to do? He was actually involved in that system because he didn't believe in himself, and because of the environment he lived in since he was a child, he didn't believe that I could rely on my own hands to meet the most basic needs in life. Believe in yourself.

The second is that he feels that the environment in which he lives has made it impossible for him to think out of this system. He may take it for granted and think, ok, I am going to buy a house now, or I am going to buy a house now. buy a car. I think this is a question of concept, one is a question of concept, and the second is that you don’t know how to minimize your own needs in life, what do I need at a minimum, and many people don’t have this awareness.

Shu Shaohuan:

Yeah, then I feel like it's in place, and then I'd be particularly interested in that thing you're doing. Including everything you mentioned before, such as a living space of 9 square meters, I can understand that if you have such a land, the building actually includes, because the one I saw you is "The Way of Independence". The guide and the booklet in the book will tell you how those buildings are made, that is, many of the materials are actually obtained from local boards or wood, and these things can actually be relatively inexpensive. You can build a place to live, and then include some daily necessities. You can also burn some pottery, which is your life, such as burning some pottery, or you can make some decorative things in other ways, and then include the energy you mentioned, I think you just mentioned the sun Stove, I am particularly impressed.

Can you give some more examples? For example, it may be construction, food, and daily necessities. Basically, what things can be made with your own hands?

Tang Guanhua: Not all the things we use now are made by ourselves. There is a technical barrier in it. It is the people who can make this, not us. These things are made by human beings. Look at all the furniture. All can be made by hand, and many of the things we usually use come from nature. These houses are made of natural materials, such as civil engineering, dianthus, and soil. For example, if you say that you need to buy some board materials for this house, in fact, you don’t need to. The soil itself is the best building material. There are people who have hands, and everyone likes to live like this. If there are several people, then everyone will dig the soil together. After digging the soil, we will match it well, and make it into a wall or brick of three-compound soil. In the past, many earthen houses in rural areas were built like this, that is, everyone in the village rammed the soil together, and then took a large log, wooden pier, or stone or something, rammed it, and then rammed the soil very solidly. , is the earth wall. And some of the walls are up to half a meter thick, and its thermal insulation performance is excellent, warm in winter and cool in summer. Soil can also make many things. For example, the soil you just mentioned can be used to make pottery. It is not that difficult to burn pottery yourself. Chai kiln, how much does it cost, in fact, it is not as difficult as imagined. This is also introduced in my book "The Way of Independence". For example, if you want to burn basic pottery products, that is the simplest method that we can use. For example, the method of pit burning is some primitive method. , because if it is so difficult for you, then our primitive man used to burn a clay pot, so it would be over?

Pottery has been around for a long time, and this technology has existed in civilization for a long time. As long as there is fire, it can be burned. It is not difficult. Moreover, it is very easy for us to make fire. , Flint for fire, and now all kinds of fire sickles, magnesium rods, and lighters are so convenient, that is to say, when there is fire, then dig a hole, then sieve the soil out, distribute water, and fuse it into what we want. Then we buried it in a pit in the ground, and then we covered it with a lot of wood and grass, the coverage was higher than the ground, such a big haystack, and then put the pinch of mud in it and burned it for a day and a night. It even burned there for three days and three nights, and then dismantled the kiln. There is no need to invest in building that kind of extra-large. Of course, investing in that kind of extra-large is to burn a large amount and have a high success rate, but we burn some daily necessities ourselves, and it is also interesting to use this method.

Soil has many uses. For example, if you have mastered pottery making, you can make many things, many containers, and many furniture. You can even use pottery to make small tables and stools.

Then there is the stone, not to mention, if there are a lot of stones in this place, then the stone is our most primitive tool, a stone axe, an axe made of stone, that is our first tool, the first production tool. We can use this stone to build houses and build houses. I have built them. I used to build stone houses when I was first in Qingdao. The stone houses are all about contribution.

This stone is a natural stone. You dig it on the spot, move the stone, and build it piece by piece. Then you think it is very difficult to build a stone, as if a stonemason can do it. Before I went up the mountain, I went to Laoshan when I was 17 or 18 years old. Before I went up the mountain, I had never been to the countryside at all. I didn’t know vegetables, let alone stone houses. I had never seen them before, but I could build a stone house in one year. Why? I think the problem here is that you need to have a certain self-learning ability, and the other is that it is impossible to be as delicate and refined as the masons do, but I think to be a sheltered space, everyone has this ability.

Stone, because we can make a lot of things with stone, we can make a stove with stone, we can make a house with stone, right? It is very simple to do it. We have mastered one essential point. If we want to do it beautifully, we should put the flattest side of the stone outward, because every stone has at least one side that is relatively flat, so we only need to put this side. Just put it on the outside, with the other side facing inward, then fill it with caulk, and finally it will be a flat surface after it comes out.

This is not a particularly difficult task, as long as you work hard.

Then bamboo is the same. Bamboo can be used as a lot of living utensils and utensils. Bamboo can transport ordinary drinking water. It can also be used as a container. It can also be used as daily necessities in the house, such as furniture. There are many things. , In fact, there are not many needs in life, in fact, these few things can meet your life needs.

That's right, there is still a lot of variability in the soil. That is, the soil can transform the terrain, because the earth is the soil, so in fact, when using soil, one is adding and the other is subtracting in space. This is also true in architecture. Such a statement. So in this respect, the soil can actually do a lot of work, that is, we don’t necessarily need to use the soil to pile things up, we can also use the digging soil to use the excavated part as a container, and the excavated part can be used as a cellar. There are cellars in the north, yes, then the excavated parts can be used as some crypts, called Dixingzi, Xinjiang has Diyinzi, and Shanxi has caves, that is, excavation, negative construction in this form, and even a lot of functional Uses, even natural refrigerators. Because the temperature of the underground is actually a temperature difference from the temperature of the ground, the temperature of the underground is constant, that is to say, if the ground is too hot, the underground is still constant temperature, and if the ground is too cold, the underground is also constant temperature.

So, for example, the ground may have reached the extreme heat of 30 to 40 degrees now. In fact, the temperature of the underground, if we dig a space, this space may be kept below the average temperature of 20 degrees, and then the temperature below 20 degrees, Since the ground is 40 degrees, then the temperature of 20 degrees underground is based on this law of physics. When the hot air rises, it will pump up the constant temperature air in the ground, and it will be automatically pumped up and brought up by the hot air. The indoor and outdoor air is replaced, and the indoor air temperature will drop after the completion. In the indoor space where the sun radiates, a window for air circulation can be designed. At this time, after the air is exchanged, the room can naturally become a natural air conditioner. In fact, this is the concept of a natural air conditioner, yes, this It's not widespread now, but it's used in some of the top zero-energy building designs. There are actually many schemes like this, and there are two types of them. One is called low-tech design. The other is called high-tech design. In this self-sufficient life, we often use some low-tech technologies, or low-tech. So what is this low-tech?

What does low tech mean? That is, it is not a high-tech thing, we can't produce it, and it is not without scientific and technological content, there is a lot of technical and scientific content, it has a high scientific content, but it uses some of our basic common sense of physics. . Then it can actually achieve some uses such as automation and so on. For example, for water, we have to use a pump to pump water up from the ground, so we have to use electricity, right, then if we take water from a high place, the water will flow down without gravity, and it will even flow down. It can generate electricity, and it can also push some other objects to move, right? That is to say, we can use these physical and natural laws of physics to realize some low-tech automation applications to make our lives run efficiently.

There are a lot of things that can be thought about here, just say that there is a reason for these things, why not many people think about them, because they have little economic value, because one of these things is done by yourself after everyone has learned it. It doesn't make much sense to sell a finished product, and no one will buy it, because this thing is what you use, if you don't use it, it's useless to get it, so it is said that not many people study this, so it is said that some human wisdom Things that are discarded because of insufficient economic value, so this is also a very important role of self-sufficiency practice. We preserve, learn and preserve these techniques. "Independence", it is actually preserving these technologies, self-sufficient laboratory.

The self-sufficient laboratory I established in Qingdao in 2010 was established to preserve these wisdoms that have little economic value but are of great use to life. There is another aspect of him. He said that everything is made from local materials, just as I said about the civil dianthus, and the other thing that I didn't mention is the fiber. Fiber is also a very important material, because fiber is actually in all plant systems, and it is ubiquitous in the biological system of natural ecology, and fiber can actually perform various processes to make fiber into different uses. , for example you can use weaving, weaving.

We are going to use rope, so all these materials have to be created by fibers and realized by fibers. So fiber technology is also very important. We can grow cotton, even collect some natural plant fibers, collect some natural rattan, and even some fibers with a certain strength, then we can use these fibers to weave some materials, we can even use them to make clothes, do Some utensils and containers can hold some things, and can also be used as hammocks. We can also weave some fishing nets, and we can also weave these tools for many purposes. In addition, it can heat, and the fibers also provide insulation.

So what we are talking about now, soil, wood, stone, bamboo, and fiber, are all solutions based on local materials. After all, we are not a primitive society. We still have a very good foundation today, which is our modern civilization. It has been so many years, right? There are still a lot of modern urban materials that have been wasted here. The materials in the city are actually the waste of industrial civilization, that is, the so-called garbage, garbage and waste. Therefore, there is another creative idea other than local materials, which is to use waste. We have too much room for imagination. We can use a lot of urban waste, including some of our common materials. plastic products. Plastic products are a difficult-to-degrade material we face, so we can use plastic products. My idea is to use its non-degradable characteristics, that is, to use it in places that are not easy to damage, such as wrapping with it. Some things, or fill some places, we don't have to reprocess it because of its performance advantages.

Plastic products, including plastic bottles, I have done experiments on air insulation for plastic bottles a long time ago, as well as metal materials, some metal materials can actually be reshaped by low temperature, such as aluminum alloys, etc., then in fact, in our Many cans are basically aluminum alloys, so this alloy material can be reshaped at our lower temperature, which is the lower temperature we can generally reach, and the reshaping can be done directly. Process or cast this aluminum alloy material into various metal devices we need. In terms of practicality, or in terms of handicraft design, it is a good direction.

For example, so many discarded old clothes and cloths can be directly reused and turned into new usable items.

In addition to these, these modern wastes can also be used as decorative items, including some waste circuit boards, including those wires, as well as some industrial wastes, electronic wastes, and all can be used as decorations. They are dismantled, rearranged, consciously designed, and placed on some outdoor or indoor walls as a decoration. I think there is a lot of space to explore.

Shu Shaohuan: I can understand that all these natural materials, plus some current urban wastes, are actually enough to meet the needs of our lives. However, I would like to ask, that is, I am also particularly interested in the book "The Way of Independence". It is this book that I understand. It is actually very liberating. For an individual like you, As I just said, in fact, you can rely on this thing, these low-tech technologies can fully meet your needs in life. Yes, at present, for example, will there be other versions of this book in the future, or will there be some additions?

Tang Guanhua: Expanding the content is in the plan. But I don't have a detailed plan for this right now. The plan of "The Way of Independence" is that some things shouldn't be said that I will always do it alone, and it may not be something that I can handle alone. Son, it's about everyone. So now that I have started this, I think more people can try to write this thing, and the technologies and survival skills we are facing in this corner of the world should have a lot of them. He doesn't mean that I can understand all the wisdom of my own place. Only when everyone can do it by themselves, and finally can record these things and then share them, then this matter can really let more people in this world. There's a chance to find out, right?

Of course, the energy of one person is still not enough. I hope that more people will do this. Even if I publish ten books myself, it may still be the same, that is to say, it will only affect that part of the people. But it would be great if ten people could each publish a copy, and I have seen a lot of YouTube, including some foreign websites, including station B, from many countries, and it seems that there are also Vietnam or somewhere, including our domestic Li Ziqi, and some people from other countries. In Europe, some of them also started to shoot this kind of self-sufficiency video on the Internet. I have seen such people doing it over the years, so when I saw it, I felt very happy. Whether they may be for a kind of anchor, maybe there is a kind of revenue, do they shoot some videos, or do they really want to share such technology? I think it all makes sense.

Shu Shaohuan: Indeed, yes, there are some at present. I don't know if you have heard of a book? It should be at that time in the 1960s and 1970s. There was a magazine in the United States called "World Catalog", which should be very early, and it was also a sharing of this technology.

Tang Guanhua: Of course, of course, it's great, this set of books is very hard to find now, that is, we bought several hands, and they are not complete. Yes, at that time, everyone could check this information by themselves. Jobs said that he was influenced by this book at the time, and then because he caught up with a trend of thinking, returning to the land and the hippie movement, etc., it was in the 1960s, because everyone was anti-war after World War II. The mood is serious, and the people do not want to fight. It is a globalized trend of thought, mainly in Europe and the United States, where the country is destroyed and the family is destroyed, and the desire to love peace is particularly strong. At this time, the bud, the vitality, the spirit of sharing, altruism, love, and peace contained in the spirit of peace are released, and everyone widely accepts this kind of thought.

Everyone is spontaneous, the people are spontaneous, I don’t think we have such an opportunity today, so everyone is unaware, it seems that this peace, this world peace and love are worse than putting the economy at the highest level, so this is like world peace. After a while, people seem to forget about the scars.

Started to engage in these competitions again, thinking about fighting, thinking about making some things out, yes, it doesn’t take long to learn a lesson, we have to think about it only when we are riddled with holes, this is good, this is important, the ecological environment is important, The relationship between people is important, so I think if people can be a little prescient, they have to do something ahead of time. It is indeed necessary to have such a voice of reflection, including the need for more people to do such things. First there is space. First of all, there are more people and fewer people, we can't force it. If there is no space, there are definitely not many people.

Mind/Conscience Sanctuary

Shu Shaohuan: Yes, in fact, I have seen it before. You went to some consensus communities abroad and went there to learn about it. What is the situation abroad? Will they be relatively mature?

Tang Guanhua: As for foreign countries, there are basically several situations. Generally speaking, because the national conditions and policies are somewhat different from our own. On the one hand, in many of their countries, people can buy land by themselves, so because they can manage their own land and have this sovereignty, their investment in this land will be relatively long-lasting, continuous and sustainable. To inherit this land, right?

I have devoted my whole life to this land, and then I have built so many things on it, even if I can't enjoy it anymore, my descendants can enjoy it. It is this thing that has an inheritance relationship.

Of course, in our country, I think the same is true, except that it is not an intergenerational relationship passed on to us, nor a blood relationship passed on to us. Then we are a communist and characteristic socialist country, then we pass it on to Who is it? We passed it on to the world, we passed it on to all mankind, all of us in the Comintern, that is, all believers of communist beliefs, you can come and pass on my land, right, so it is actually the same.

But the question is whether we can get such an effective inheritance. What we build is likely to be overturned the next day. There is such a problem here. If we can effectively pass on all people, it does not have to be for our family members or people who share blood ties. We can share it with the society. In the place I am building now, if this community is I withdraw, and I can turn it into a public community, or it can become an ecological park, or it can be a protected area. a special zone. I don't think I have to own this thing, but because it's really an eco-friendly place that doesn't use chemical fertilizers or pesticides. But if the land I am renting now is 500 acres that we are renting together with you, we have been protecting this place for nearly ten years, and this place has never used herbicides, fertilizers, pesticides, etc., right?

Then if we don't rent this land now, the situation may not be like this. It should be 100% not like this. There will be a lot of businesses going in immediately, or if ordinary villagers use this land, they will re-fertilize the place. , playing pesticides or something. And there are wetlands inside. We conserve this wetland. We have not promoted or destroyed dozens of acres of wetlands, leaving an ecosystem and a place to breathe. Those things are not necessarily for me, I I don't need to leave my own blood relationship, but can I pass on this mission, right? That's what it is. Or can the entire country provide so much space to inherit this eco-friendly mission.

Then this is a problem, so what about many spontaneous people abroad, they choose some land, they buy it, then build and cultivate for many years, and then convert many places with harsh climate environments and even conditions into particularly prosperous ones. I have also been to some modern communities, and everyone is a gathering of people from all over the world. People from all over the world live together. They are all people who love peace, heat and nature. Some communities are hundreds of years old. Some are just a few years old, and some are. That includes countries like Israel and a collective farm called kibbutz . I have never been to this, but I have heard that this is an important national policy under the national policy. State behavior is to have To retain such a mode of production is to focus on the mode of production of the small-scale peasant economy and not to develop urbanization.

These are some international practices, and there is not much to learn from them. However, according to our own situation, I think it is the points I just mentioned. We should approve some special special zones at the national level, just like protecting same district, right? Even if you are a nature reserve, you have to protect the nature. In addition, the reserve is not only to protect the so-called ecology, the nature of plants, animals, and people's hearts.

This is also a very important thing, that is to say, these foreign communities are actually not only protecting such an ecosystem, but also protecting a person's conscience. There are many people living in this kind of community, he does not need To participate in the vicious competition, the involution system of economic capital. They can live on their own and have dignity there. They don't have to compare themselves with others. They must have face, right?

🔗 Tang Guanhua: Revival of Conscience/ Speech at the 2nd World Rural Revival Conference

In this place, the values are that I work, I am honorable, it is not that I am rich, I am honorable. Yes, so this is such a very important thing, this is to preserve the kindness of some people. That's right, people who love peace and nature, they do these jobs, they do a lot of jobs, although they don't make money. Maybe what they do is not to make money, including artists, what he does is not to make money at all, not to make money or work for the purpose of economy. But don't they contribute to society? The contribution may not necessarily be smaller than those for economic purposes. So shouldn't they have a space together? Is this a group that should be protected? Therefore, I think protected areas should protect people and nature, protect nature, and also protect people, and protect the benign side of human nature.

I don't think there is such a space right now.

If there is no such space, myself, including my friends around me, will sometimes be a little confused and tired, including some time ago, I didn’t say lie down, everyone would have this mentality, it’s just because of a space, it’s actually a choice Right and possibility. Just don't cooperate. In the end, I got a lie down, but I didn't cooperate, I didn't cooperate. But if you don’t cooperate, you will actually consume a lot of yourself and the outside world. It is not a sustainable way. If you are not constructive, you will try to withdraw from the competition in a very sad way. It's not such a thing as a healthy, forward loop.

Shu Shaohuan: Yes, what you said, but I think at least lying flat is a reflection on the current society, it is a choice: lying flat, at least he has reflected, he thinks I should do something, but if I can. Nothing to do, nothing to do, I just lie down. Therefore, I think that these people may have a chance, and if they add a constructive aspect, they may become the pioneers of a new life. He needs a possibility, a force to turn him around, reflection or rebellion is not enough, you have to have something else, yes, you have to create, create!

Tang Guanhua: Yes, just criticizing is not enough. What is a good life like? You have to make it. This is very important. The core of launching the Homeland Project (AnotherLand.org) is to create this good life, not to criticize the original and existing things.

Shu Shaohuan: I think this is also a valuable part of the home plan!

I don't have any other questions here, do you have anything to add?

Tang Guanhua: We are planning the seventh Southern Life Festival . Also, do you think it's possible to edit this interview into a podcast or something?

Shu Shaohuan: I think it's pretty good, yes.

podcast