[EN transcript] S01E03 Part 1 The Film Industry as the Exit? Mapping a Life after IR

Text transcription

Jasmine 00:00

Hello, I'm Jasmine from Overreactology and welcome to the third episode of Overreactology’s Season 1, "At the Crossroads of the World". In the first episode, we asked 'what is the difference between the professionals and students of international relations (IR) and those taxi drivers in Beijing?' This question went trendy on the internet, and we received a lot of responses and discussions in the comments. First of all, I would like to thank you all very much for enjoying and supporting this episode, and I sincerely hope and look forward to more discussions with you in the future. Receiving your private messages and responses really inspired me a lot.

We also launched a poll in the comment section to find out if people had any regrets about choosing to major in international relations, diplomacy or political science. Before recording this episode, I saw that more than 500 people had participated in the poll, with 38% regretting their choice and 62% not regretting it. In the comment section, there were two kinds of voices. The first kind is more self-deprecating, or they genuinely regret choosing this major. They say, "You'll think the taxi drivers actually make sense after you study International Relations", and some of them labelled it as the "Taxi School" of IR. Or they said, they regret choosing this major when they are looking for a job. Another kind of voice, or to say, comfort, is from people who have already found a job. For example, there is one who said that, after graduating from the University of International Relations with a master's degree, he has been working in a foreign company for five years, doing procurement work, and his work involves a lot of cross-border supply chains, cross-cultural exchanges...etc. In his previous impression, only people in diplomacy would be concerned about these things (but it turns out not).

This season is called "Standing At the Crossroads of the World", and it focuses on how young people entered the discipline of IR, how they found their research interests, and how they exited. And this episode is the last one in this season, focusing on a discussion of exiting IR.

This episode is divided into two parts and we invited two guests who have turned away from the field of IR after studying it. In the first part of this episode - the one you're listening to right now - the profile of the guest is "an idealist who studied IR for 6 years and decided to switch to the film industry six months before graduation". For me, this guest seems to have a lot of shining titles compared to his peers, such as his educational background, so let's start with a self-introduction.

Qianren Wang

Okay, no problem. Thank you Jasmine for the invitation. My name is Qianren Wang, I did my undergraduate studies in IR at Beijing Foreign Studies University (BFSU) for four years, and I minored in English and Spanish. I went to Harvard for exchange for one semester back in my third year, and now I am studying at Yenching Academy of Peking University for my master's degree, still studying international relations. I went to Stanford for a summer school in my second year (of my master's), and then followed that up with a semester of exchange in Spain. Now I'm planning to switch to the film industry, so it's kind of a big leap, and I think it might also be an interesting question - after almost six years of IR studies, why did I choose to work in a seemingly completely unrelated industry 6 months before my graduation? I'm looking forward to discussing it with you today.

[04:10] Why did you leave? There's no way I can "love" international relations.

Jasmine 04:10

I've read some of Qianren's articles on other platforms before, and I know you said you found your love and courage at Stanford, so I just wanted to start by talking about what started this choice for you to leave IR.

Qianren Wang 04:27

The reason why I'm giving up on IR now is because I just don't feel anything for it anymore. Honestly, I don't necessarily hate it. But because I'm a person who needs to love 100% of what I'm doing to continue, I need to love it. And since I don't love IR anymore, I can't do it.

The reason why I don't have any feelings for it is that I did some internships and research related to IR in my undergraduate degree, and I also asked some seniors. Regarding related career paths in IR, I have done internships in think tanks, in SOE and government sector, and basically in these IR-related professional directions. Then I found that none of these were what I wanted. The government system was too depressing, and think tanks did not have much impact, as well as in international organisations, which I found to be bureaucratic. Then I found it quite boring, and slowly I felt that I didn't have the passion to get up at 5 o'clock in the morning to do something. So I thought I had to change my direction.

[05:36] What I enjoy most is "extracting order out of disorder."

Jasmine 05:36

Actually, your way of thinking about this is kinda similar to my way as well. When I was exploring my career path or my future plans (which of course is the opposite of what you love), I also found that I didn't like (to work in) corporations, I didn't like to work in grassroot organisations. I like to do research. After eliminating those dislikes, I actually really like IR as a major. For me, there is passion, and this is the motive that is driving me, I would like to ask where is your passion?

Qianren Wang 06:05

Good question, now I think my passion is to create a piece of artwork from 0 to 1. This comes from some of my past experiences. Gradually, I figured this out. At the beginning, when I was a graduate student working at an international conference on design, I designed a lot of products, logos, posters etc. from 0 to 1, which gave me a great sense of achievement. Later on, I did photography, and because photography is also a process of creating a photo from zero and now I am trying to make videos and films, I feel that the motivation I enjoy the most is "extracting order from disorder". Every process of creation is both painful and pleasurable for me. This is because I have to sort out one or two clues that seem logical out of a thousand clues. This process was really overwhelming, but I felt a great sense of achievement when I finished. That's something that I don't think international relations can offer, and it's (creative work) that I love. So that's why I turned to film.

Jasmine 07:12

Can you give me an example? How do you create order out of disorder?

Qianren Wang 07:17 Let's give you the most recent example. Two days ago, I went to record the Top Ten Singers (competition) at Peking University, and that night I took over 70GB of materials, almost three to four hours of footage. This is because there are different camera positions for different characters. I went through it twice from beginning to end, which took me over six hours, and then I sorted out which footage could be cut together, and in what way it could be cut together. So during the process, I came up with a number of ideas, and finally chose one of the three ideas, which was to use colour to link the whole video.

I started with the colours of the Top Ten Singers at Peking University, because I saw that the colours of choreography, the colours of the costumes and the hair colours of the contestants were all different. They were very colourful. So I ended up using red, orange, yellow, green, blue and purple and interspersed the colours to make it a rainbow. That's something I feel very accomplished.

[08:10] From textual to visual, the "stimulus" of different media is changing.

Jasmine 08:10

Does it sound to me like you're more interested in that impact or feeling that something the visuals can give you, rather than something textual? I don't know if I'm right, but I also know that you actually had a long period of time before, when you were writing articles on the WeChat Public Account for over a year. And then you also began to do photography and design, and now you want to explore the world of film. This is actually a change of four mediums. Do you think that in different mediums, their ways of expression and the content presented will be different?

Qianren Wang 08:44

I think it will be different. I've been writing for more than a year, and the reason why I gave up was that I felt it brought me less positive feedback. To be honest, fewer and fewer people read articles on WeChat Public Accounts, so I feel no sense of achievement when I have few likes and few comments after each well-written article which may take me 8 hours. But at the same time, I saw some photographers posting their work on Xiaohongshu (the Chinese version of Instagram). Maybe it's just a simple picture, but it can trigger a lot of people's resonance.

I think it's inevitable, I think people are a little more easier to be stimulated by visual things - videos or pictures. One is that people might feel that they don't have time to read. Another is that you need to be calm and peaceful to get impressed by words, like a book or a novel. But nowadays it's difficult for people to have a peaceful mind, so this collective shift impacted me on a personal level, that is, I also turned from the WeChat Public Account to Xiaohongshu, and gave up the previous habit (of writing articles).

[09:52] Vertical personal IP and the multi-dimensional growth of me

Jasmine 09:52

So in this whole process, I think you're consciously building your own personal IP. In the major social media platforms, not just from this year, but in the past few years there have already been a lot of people, like students from famous universities, or overseas students, or employees of well-known companies doing this (personal IP build-ups). This is one of the things that I hardly understand. I have tried to run an account sharing #Journal and #studywithme content on some platforms before, but after doing it for around two years, I feel that the expression on a certain platform is just a very, very small part of me, and I feel very unsatisfied. And I feel that the content that I posted was so vertical, and it didn't reflect the whole of me as a person in a complete way.

To me, I feel like your social media posts are vertical at one time, for example you did article posting on WeChat Public Account for a while and have been doing photography for a long time, but then you are agile and lively at another time. You will turn another direction or change your way of expression after doing something for a while, and you don't allow yourself to be trapped in one field all the time.

Qianren Wang 10:56

I think it's a very good question, I have a lot of things I want to say. I'm slowly sorting myself out.

A while ago, I read about a photographer that I really like, and he said that he's been doing weekly photography tutorials for 8 years, which I think is a very admirable thing, and he's both doing video and textual content at the same time. He's a world-award-winning photographer, and he's still doing this for 8 years, so I think he's made photography the main focus of his life, and he's only putting photography on his accounts, all of his accounts. But is there anything else in his life besides photography? There is definitely something, but photography is a very big part of his life.

The reason why I'm jumpy and vertical is because I've been searching for "what is the thing" for me. Now I think I may have found it, temporarily, that is, for art creation, for the love of photography. The reason why I previously wandered around various media platforms, including the WeChat Public Account and Xiaohongshu, in fact, is because it was also a process to discover what I truly want, to test water and find errors. For example, you can find that now my Xiaohongshu account has not been updated for a long time. My reason is actually exactly the same as what you said just now, I think it's too small, too narrow, it's just a very small part of me (shown on Xiaohongshu), and I was a #studywithme channel influencer (study blogger) before. I basically shared everything I could before. I don't really have much to say about how to study right now, and I don't have more input from studying currently, because I haven't been studying much lately, haha, so I just stopped. But I don't think it matters, no matter in what ways of expression, the core logic of doing social media sharing, I think, it's all about giving value. No matter what form of expression you adopt, as long as you are sharing what you feel is valuable in helping others, it's all fine, whether it's in text, in audio, or whatever. The reason why I don't do it now is that I don't think I have anything that can help others for the time being, and I'm learning that when I get to a higher realm, I may still be able to share, for example, photography tutorials, or some other things.

[13:07] Three Reasons to Hate News about International Relations

Jasmine 13:07

You, as I understand, are not a big fan of news or news about international affairs, right?

Qianren Wang 13:11

Yes, I especially hate it. Hahaha, first of all I hate news. Firstly, the things journalists would like us to know, tend to be a lot of negative news, because then it would be more SENTIMENTAL, it would be more emotionally appealing, and it would be more efficient in reaching audiences. Secondly, news is about things that have already happened, and there is nothing we can do to change them. We can't change the fact that a nuclear weapon has gone off, it's just a given. I think the more I read the news, the more I feel a sense of powerlessness, a sense of loss of control. The third thing is that news is so time-sensitive that after reading a piece of news in the morning, it may change again in the afternoon, and I can never catch up with it. Therefore, when I was an IR student, I hated one question in particular, that is, every year, when going back for the family reunion in the Spring Festival, my relatives would ask me, "What do you think about the international events that happened recently?" I usually said, "Don't ask me, I don't even know about it". Because I really don't like to read the news. But almost all kinds of IR exams will have some questions related to news, so I basically did some pre-test cramming. I will read the news a day or two before, and then focus on picking up a bit, and then reach a level where I can at least write something down. And then after the exam, I just don't care about it anymore. I hate news.

[14:22] Being in the World vs. The Eternal Origin (of the World)

Jasmine 14:22

In my opinion, I think that those things that journalism is exploring are probably closer to what Overreactology is doing right now. We want to find out what's going on in the real world, here and now, in those distant places, and how do personal experiences resonate with grand international relations? If you feel that some real events, those time-sensitive things make you feel powerless, or there is no way to change them, what do you prefer to perceive in this world? What aspect of the world do you want to capture with your lens?

Qianren Wang 15:02

Eternity. For example, I like some traditional philosophies, such as Buddhism and Taoism, which discuss more essential things that do not change with time. For example, the origin of the universe, the Tao, the spiritual transformation of human beings. These things, I think, will not be changed by the change of time, and are more fundamental.

Jasmine 15:32 I get what you're saying, but in my opinion. I'm a big advocate of "worldly"*, and I feel that in my limited lifetime, dealing with what's happening right now is the only thing that I can reach, or try my best to make changes on. So I think it's important to have a position and biases, and the same goes for the study of international relations. I don't think there is any study or any perspective that is neutral, even if you use the language of cinema and the lenses to perceive the world. I don't think it is (neutral).

[*Note: "worldly" equals to 入世 (rushi) in Chinese. In philosophy, it means actively engaging and participating in secular society and the related affairs; On the contrary, "leaving the world" or "transcending the world" equals to 出世 (chushi), referring to the state of spiritual peacefulness transcending societal affairs. The tension between chushi and rushi is a key debate in Chinese philosophy, emphasizing a balance between societal responsibility and the fulfilment of inner peace.]

[16:07] Is it more meaningful to talk about the "obvious" of grand propositions?

Jasmine 16:07

So you like to have a preference for things that are more timeless and eternal, like the oldest wisdom of humankind, the Tao, or whatever, which reminds me of the fact that there are a lot of people who criticise international relations, that it's merely a 'popular field of study [显学 xianxue]'*, that it doesn't have a strong philosophical underpinning and deep theoretical background or anything compared to philosophy, and that all the issues that are examined in IR are much closer to reality, much more fragmented. Is it because of this that you feel that the topics studied in international relations lack a sense of significance and meaning under grand narratives?

[*Note: 显学 (xianxue, or popular field of study) can refer to multiple meanings. In general, it means the field of study which is closely connected with the empirics or affairs closely connected with society, and might have occupied the mainstream school of thought in society. Its meaning usually depends on the context. Here in the Chinese context, IR has been criticised for engaging with the empirics on the shallow surface but lacks deeper discussions.]

Qianren Wang 16:41

I'd like to say yes, but I think saying yes would make me look arrogant, haha. I think most of the time things discussed in international relations are more fragmented. Different countries have different standpoints. There are so many countries and organisations. They all have their own standpoint. Everyone has their own standpoint and interests, and they are all right. For me, that's one of the few takeaways from IR. Those eternal things, I think, are more deep-rooted. They won't be dominated by the positions or standpoints of different parties, and everyone is equal in these things, so that's why I prefer the latter.

[17:26] The Word in Education is More Important than the Art

Jasmine 17:26

Although it's true that you've now shifted a career direction, do you feel that your education in international relations at that time brought you anything? Or what hasn't been brought to you?

Qianren Wang 17:37

I think it's an interesting question. In this year's Spring Festival, I told everyone in my family that I don't want to do international relations anymore, I want to do film. They were shocked.

They said, "You went abroad to study - what's wrong with you? You've studied international relations for so long. Why are you leaving now? We're expecting you to be a diplomat in the future." I said no, I don't like it. They said, then haven't you wasted these years?

I think the word "wasted" reflects the topic we are discussing now. This involves a more profound question, that is, what is education? I think education is not about the theories of international relations that I learnt, the positions of different countries, the history of them, etc. Those are on the intellectual level, the shu [术 (technical)]. I think it is more important to be at the level of the dao [道 (essential and principle)], that is, what kind of a person I became, what kind of values I have been reshaped in the process of learning IR.

For example, when I was doing debates and discussions on international relations, I put myself in the positions of different countries and thought about some of their issues. When I needed to change to another country, I was also able to say something, which might be diametrically opposite from the previous ones. So I realised that those people in the UN were arguing, vetoing and everyone seemed irrational. But in fact they were rational. It was just because they had different interests. That's what I learnt - the in-depth values and this is definitely transferable.

I'm in, for example, in the workplace now or in different places of communication, if we have different opinions, surely it's just because our interests are different, you're sure everyone makes sense, and everyone is rational. So I don't think there's such a thing as waste, all these things I've learnt, all these nights I've stayed up, all this paper I've done have all become who I am now to a certain extent, and it's actually shaped me in terms of my skills, my perceptions, and my various aspects. If it wasn't for International Relations, I probably wouldn't be into film right now.

[19:42] Finding a job with matching skills is a typical student mindset

Jasmine 19:42

In both of our previous episodes, we've talked about what kind of career paths people might take after graduating from International Relations. In today's episode, both Part 1 and Part 2, the two guests chose to leave the IR-related industry in the end. In the past two years, there has been a saying that "there is no shore in life, so what is the point of going ashore?" In your self-introduction, you said that you are a very idealistic person. Does it mean that your choice to leave the IR related professions or industry is not an affordable choice? Do you think that at the moment in your judgement, or in your own choice of career path, you have considered affordability, future development, and so on?

Qianren Wang 20:13

I think that's a very good question. I've been reading some blogs about this recently, and there's an author of a book that I really like. He's talking about how the reason why he won't let his kids go to university is because the current education system is actually dysfunctional. It originated from the industrial revolution, when the whole purpose of the education system was to add screws to the functioning society, so it was oriented towards the division of labour. That actually remains the same until today.

In my first seminar as a freshman, I asked one of my seniors, "What are some career choices that are suitable for IR students? I now realise that this kind of mindset is a very typical kind of student mindset. I would think that I have learnt all these things and skills to match a career. But in fact, I do not necessarily have to limit myself within these (things and skills from IR).

One of my favourite sayings, which I learnt when I was at Stanford, is "learn everything, do anything". It means that you learn everything broadly. And then you can do anything - there's nothing you can't do, and that's a much broader view of the world. So now I feel that whether I studied IR or not, there is no need to box myself into these career directions of international relations. Is that the only thing I can do? I think it's more important that you find your calling, what you want to do, and if you find that, it doesn't matter what kind of career you have, it doesn't matter what kind of age you are, you just go for it.

So I think the important difference between a student mindset and an entrepreneur mindset is whether you're just looking for a "job", or you're looking for a "calling". A Job, in fact, is nothing more than where to work. But if you find your calling, you really can go all out fight for it. You can sacrifice your sleep. You can get up at 5 o'clock in the morning to do those things. For example, for photography, I can get up at 5 o'clock in the morning to go to shoot the sunrise, and then go to shoot the sunset at dusk. A whole day. But it does not make me "tired". This is considered more important than the "self", so that's where I think my idealism lies.

[22:39] The paradox of courage and "strength" - would I have made it this far without the aura of a prestigious school?

Jasmine 22:39 It feels like your experience, on the one hand, is based on the fact that you had the courage to explore your love. But on the other hand, it's based on your capability, and that capability, in addition to, for example, the language foundation that you had from your previous studies of English and Spanish (which allowed you to go out and interact with people), it's also the fact that your excellent grades allowed you to go to a prestigious university. Can you talk about what the platform of a prestigious university has given you?

Qianren Wang 23:07

I think you're absolutely right. Most of the reason I'm able to say these "shameless" things today is because I'm very lucky that I have such a good platform, and I have these halos that have given me these great opportunities. If I didn't have these opportunities, frankly, it would take a lot more courage to say that I don't care about these things. I think it's a big paradox that I've worked so hard to get to this point, and I've had such good opportunities, so I can say I don't care about these opportunities anymore.

But on the other hand, I've seen many vloggers drop out of school and start travelling around the world on Xiaohongshu. In fact, I am not saying that such people are so great and couragous pr advocating that we should all become such people. I am just saying that there is such a possibility, and this possibility requires a lot of courage. Most of them were either born in a somewhat miserable family. It makes them feel that the status quo is so awful and painful that they have to change. The pain that they have to take a step forward, is not as painful as maintaining the status quo. So they changed.

But anyway, my point is, I am grateful. I'm able to stand here, and definitely, these prestigious universities have given me a lot of opportunities, but if you don't have such opportunities, definitely it takes more courage, but it's not entirely impossible.

Jasmine 24:24 I want to follow up on that a little bit more, which is that the Yenching Academy at Peking University is a very special programme. And the film studies programme at Stanford is also a very famous one. Can you expand on what you explored when you were at the Yenching Academy? Why did you find yourself facing a bigger world after you arrived at the Yenching Academy? After you got to Stanford, how did the skills and training you received have helped you, or how did it expand your toolbox?

Qianren Wang 24:52

I don't think Yenching is a traditional graduate programme. It doesn't have a fixed curriculum, you can take any course you want - any course in Yenching or any course in Peking University, as long as you get the credits. So it gives us a lot of freedom to explore. I basically didn't take any IR courses in graduate school. I took psychology, sociology, and then physics, film, and all kinds of things in my first year of graduate school to explore what I truly wanted to do. I think it's a good setup because the academy trusts us and gives us the freedom to mix and match what we want to do.

And I think the biggest thing is that Yenching gave us a lot of platforms and opportunities. The international conference I was doing - the one that I was designing inside the conference, was actually a direction that I would never have thought of as an undergraduate. I thought if I were to join an international forum, I would definitely do one, either as a chairperson or a staff in some kind of academic department, because it would be very helpful for my CV. But at that time, I just thought it would be fun and then I just went for it. But I think that was the best decision I ever made in graduate school. It allowed me to discover my love for design, which led to my love for photography (because they're all connected), and then to my love for film.

Qianren Wang 26:10

Then I went to Stanford, and I think the education system and philosophy of Stanford is really not the same as that in China. And that's one of the things that I benefited a lot from. Let me give you an example. At the end of the semester, we had a class on documentary film, and the tutor took us to the library, divided us into groups, and then each group was given some historical facts, some documents, and a record of a black homosexual activist who had done a lot of documentary film work. She said, "If you were a documentary filmmaker right now and I asked you to make a documentary in 30 minutes, how would you do it?" At the beginning, none of us had any idea, we thought we just read some reading, how can we be a director? But after the students in the group talked about it and read her biography and various historical facts, they put together a feasible plan. Then the tutor gave us further guidances and lessons, and then we actually made a pretty good script and subplot after three discussions. And I was like, wow, this is something that I feel like I've never done before. It will witness your growth. And it's not the kind of indoctrination that teaches you things. It's a class where you find out that you really do have the potentials, and you can really achieve something on your own. It guides you step-by-step. That's one of the things that I find very beneficial, and that's why I've developed such a strong passion for film. I think the method of education is important. In education, the HOW question is a little bit more important than the WHAT.

[27:48] The impact of feedback cycle preferences on career choice

Jasmine 27:48

I feel like, right now, your choice of career actually has a lot, a lot to do with your personality. I remember maybe when I was in junior high school, we had a test for future career development. It gave me career advice that I could do something artistic in the future because I really wanted to get feedback very quickly, and that feedback could motivate me. I feel like that's the case with you as well, but then as I've grown I think there's been a slow change in that trait of mine.

Qianren Wang 28:17

Well, I think I'm the opposite. The MBTI test that I took before said that my suggested career path was to be an analyst, like something in a think tank, or something in an international organisation. I was like, wow, then IR is right up my alley. Then I realised that I'm probably better suited to the arts.

Jasmine 28:34

Yeah, and another reason for me is that, early on, when I was in junior high school, I was actually very much into photography, and I did learn some photography techniques and related stuff, but then I didn't choose that path because I realised very early on that I'm a very person with low creativity. I felt that I could go and help other people express some original things that they wanted to say, but I was really bad at creating original work myself.

[28:59] Is the goal of life to climb the peaks that appear in front of us?

Jasmine 28:59

I would also like to add one more thing, which is to respond to what you said earlier, that you were exploring more possibilities at Yenching Academy. When I was taking the entrance exams for graduate schools at that time, I had a final round of interviews at Yenching, but I failed. The fact that I didn't get into Yenching Academy was something that pushed me in my mind. At that time, I remembered that in the summer camp for graduate school, there was a meeting over Zoom, and I found that the students who went to the camp were very different from my undergraduate peers at that time. They knew what they wanted to do.

In my previous life, when I was working on a University Student Innovation & Entrepreneurship Development Program or trying to get a high grade in a lesson, it was like I saw a peak in front of me and I just had to climb it. I didn't really have to choose which path I wanted to take. I think this is, to some extent, a kind of speculative behaviour on my part. So after I saw that group of candidates in the summer camp at Yenching Academy, and then after I failed, I started to reflect on what I really like as a person.

Qianren Wang 30:11

Then let me tell you the truth, when I talked to our students who were accepted, I found that everyone was actually pretending. We all have to write a persona of which the admissions officers might like. That said, we seemed to have everything figured out, but it's not really true at all. All of those resumes, all of those directions we're pointing out, are really just a persona that we've made up. A lot of people go in a completely different direction after two years, or just feel like bullshit about the previous direction.

And then for Stanford, I think when finding my way, I can particularly empathise with what you were saying earlier. I see a challenge and then I go and climb over it. It's a stress response. I listened to a podcast today that said you must always ask the question: are you being driven or are you being dragged; are you actively being driven or are you being dragged by things? I think that in the process of a mountain of various stresses, you can always find the mountain that you have a preference. And then you connect the dots between those mountains, and you realise, oh, I like climbing these mountains a bit more. And then you think, well, maybe I'll go in this direction in the future? I think it's a better direction.

So I'm very grateful that I found my direction at Stanford. I was talking to my mother before, and she said you're really lucky to find something you like to do in your 20s, and you also have the courage to do it. A lot of people have a hard time finding those two things in their lives, and you've found them in the two months you've been at Stanford, so you're really, really lucky. I said, indeed.

[31:54] J people's underlying logic is a sense of control over their life

Jasmine 31:54

Last topic, I want to talk to you about the future, the present and time. In the early years, I know you were a complete J person, you would plan all your schedules very, very well organised, with every time module, every minute stipulating what you were going to do. I think my view of time is similar to yours at that time, but I didn't have this concept of time three or five years ago. But after I watched Hamilton, a musical that I still like very much, I fell in love with the director, and he injected a sense of time into a lot of his works. It's a sense of time that urges you on. For example, there's a character in Hamilton who says, "(IF) there's a reason I'm still alive, when everyone who loves me has died". So there's a sense of fatalism in his life or his sense of meaning. There's another comment on Hamilton, the protagonist says, "why do you write like you're running out of time? How do you write like tomorrow won't arrive?" So, nowadays, I also sometimes wonder, if I'm going to die tomorrow, is what I've done today enough?

I was thinking about an article that I read on your public account, where you said that a book of photographs that you really love was about a photographer who went to record the lives of aboriginals. The photographer asked them what day of the month it was. The aboriginal people looked at the photographer like he was an alien, they didn't know what day of the month it was, they didn't have any idea. That article seemed to mark a shift in your view of time. I think this is linked to the fact that you're now exploring more possibilities and giving yourself more sense of slackness - are you still a J person now after realising that life is wilderness*?

Ren 33:44

Good question. I've definitely become more of a P person lately, I don't know why. It's possible that's what you're talking about, and I've been exploring why lately as well. I don't divide my life into so many modules now, like strictly planning on what I have to do during a certain period of time of that day. But I still write about what I generally have to do each day. I don't think the two things are in conflict, that is, for me, planning doesn't represent a very mechanical thing. Ideally, I know what I'm going to do for the day, and I have a general idea of what I'm going to do at what time. That would allow me to be calm even if something unexpected happens. So I think one of the underlying identities that I share with J people is the sense of control, a sense of control over my own time, that I know roughly what I'm doing rather than being dragged along by time. Well, yeah, that's probably it.

[J person vs. P person: In the Chinese (and also in South Korean) popular culture, there has been a growing interest in a personality test called the Myers & Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI). J (Judging) and P (Prospecting) are two opposite traits on the spectrum. A person who has a preference for judging is the list-makers and planners. They like to have a structure and schedule of their time and will generally space out projects so they get work done a bit at a time.]

[The 'Wilderness vs. Track' debate is a heated topic on the Chinese Internet. Group wilderness claims that living in the world is like being in the wild. Life should not be bounded by traditional norms, social timing and society's conventional expectations. Its core idea is quite similar to YOLO (you only live once). On the contrary, 'track' means the kind of life that is fixed, planned and progressed under conventional social expectation.]

[34:32] Most of life is about things that don't matter in the slightest?

Jasmine 34:32 What I didn't talk about just now is that I know you have an idea that, what's happening at the moment is actually insignificant if we consider it in the long run, so you could care less about it at the moment.

Qianren Wang 34:46

In life, 80% of the things that are happening right now, in the present moment, or today, are small and trivial things that don't matter at all. I will always ask myself, will this matter in three years' time? If it doesn't matter, then just don't care about it. What I'm actually curious about is, if you think in this way, would that make you stressed?

Jasmine 35:07

It would be very stressful. I'm a person who always has a lot of thoughts and I would always want to do many things. Whenever I am lying on my bed, I often have this feeling that there are many ideas crashing around in my head, as if Pangu was opening up the sky, and at that time I feel very sad about why I am in such poor physical body condition. I always feel that my corporality cannot allow me to understand everything or to allow me to do everything that I want. There is tension between my bodily conditions and my thoughts.

[35:40] Do I choose life or does life choose me?

Qianren Wang 35:40

I'd like to follow up on that, do you think all these things you're doing are what you really want to do?

Jasmine 35:47

I think a larger part of me, maybe 60%, was dragged, or there was an external structure that set me on a certain path. Maybe earlier, a few years ago, I thought I have many choices. I am young and courageous, and I want to do something. But whether it's publishing articles or doing internships, I gradually realised that it is not that I chose my life, it's more of the fact that life chose me.

But I don't think I'm someone who doesn't want to be dragged. When the world demands something from me, when it asks me to do something, I sometimes feel like that's what I'm supposed to do. There are a lot of things in my life, or on my career path, that make me feel like if it's not me, who? If I don't do it, there's no one else can do.

Qianren Wang 36:35

I have a different opinion. One of the principles that I have always believed in is "hell yeah or no". If I don't feel like "Wow, I have to do this thing, this is too good ", then I will say no. So I say no to 80% or even 90% of the things. So I actually do very little, but as long as I do it, it's all that I like to do. Even if I'm working very hard, I don't feel very tired. This is because I'm at least psychologically happy. Because I think there are not always a lot of things that are suitable for us to do. You can't satisfy everyone. You can't fix everything. And if you can finish everything, it means you're being mediocre in everything.

Jasmine 36:56

At the end, I'd like to revisit that poll in the comments section that I mentioned at the beginning - do you have any regrets for choosing IR?

Qianren Wang 37:30

Personally I'm a person who never regrets anything haha, I've always believed in a saying called "there is no right or wrong choice for people, only growth". It's our actions that make a choice right or wrong. So I chose IR five years ago. If you asked whether I regretted it, I actually don't. If you ask whether I like it, I don't.

But I think it's all these pains or occasional pleasures of these five years of IR that have made me the person I am today. Today, it allows me to happily say: I like this, I'm going to do this, I have the courage to do this (film). So it was probably an essential part of my growth as well, and without it, probably even I wouldn't be in the film industry right now, I'd probably still be looking in other directions. So, I think everything happened is meaningful. Don't dwell on a particular choice I made before and feel that it ruined my life since then. You're a new self every moment. So I'm a person who never regrets anything.

To listen to this episode: Apple Podcast